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U.s. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY 
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS 


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TAPE #7 
3/1/93 


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DAVID: -- was too old, right? 

JIM: Right. 

DAVID: Okay, God had promised, hadn't he? 

JIM: Yeah. 

DAVID: Well, who do you think was the one -- 

JIM: Hey, David, wait one second. I'm sorry 

to interrupt you. Has Sita already left? 

‘DAVID: Sita left? Sita left? Go check and 

see, make sure Site's left. We've got to get this 
underway. Well, anyway, we're checking on that now. 

JIM : Okay . 

[ DAVID: Anyway, Lois got pregnant and guess 

who got the blame, Jim? 

JIM: Who? 

DAVID: Me. Now, this shows you how human 

beings think, okay? 

JIM: Um-hum. 

DAVID: First of all, here I was 22, 23 years 

old, and here I am giving Lois and all these people 
studies about the power of God and the mystery of 
divinity. And Lois gets pregnant. Okay, now, what 
happened was that a lot of people rose up. There was 
originally branches. It was really Davidians, right? 

JIM: Um-hum. 

DAVID: And they accused me of going to bed 

with her and they accused her of going to bed with me. 



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• • 

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And this woman was very homely and 70 years old. Yoiu 
know what I mean? 

JIM: Yeah. Yeah, I do. 

DAVID: And so what happened was is that I 

said now, listen, there's a truth you've got to deal 
with here. I says your accusations against me, let's 
evaluate this. I says what if I did go to bed with 
her? And she has conceived a child, and she doesn't 
even have any seed. I says you better watch out your 
accusations. Out of one side of your mouth you say you 
believe in God, that God created a child in the wombi of 
Sarah. On the other side of your mouth you're saying 
that if you're Lois your a prophet (Indiscernible) it 
has to be from me that somebody's been doing naughty 
stuff. Okay? 

JIM: Um-hum. 

DAVID; They're crazy, aren't they? 

JIM: Um-hum. 

DAVID: You know, a miracle would take place 

if a 70 -year-old woman could have a baby, wouldn't it? 

JIM; Right. I, I guess so, yeah. 

DAVID: See? Well, no one should have blamed 

me. On the contrary, they should have prayed to God. 
Okay. So what happened was all hell broke loose, and 
hat's when George Roden got into the scene. 


JIM: Right. 



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DAVID: And he came in and he's waving aroiind 

a .357 Reuger, a Nighthawk or a Magnum. And he was 
telling people he was going to blow my balls off and he 
was going to, you know, all this kind of stuff. 

- JIM: Hey, David? 

DAVID: Yeah. 

JIM: They got the kids and they're on the 

way. So, go ahead and get your next two. 

DAVID: Okie doke. 

JIM: And I think you said it was Scott and 

Chrissy? 

DAVID: Okay. So, that's Scott and Chrissy 

now? Scott and Chrissy? Jim, could you do us a favor? 

JIM: Sure. What do you need? 

DAVID: Could you get our line open again to 

where we could call the radio station again? 

JIM: I, I can see, David. 

DAVID: They shut us off. 

JIM: Yeah. I'll tell you. I'll be straight 

up with you. I, I can see, but I don't hold that much 
hope because there's so much, you know, the commanders 
have to work on it. I'll tell you, there's a billion 
reporters out here. I mean, I think they've got every 
phone line tied up plus, a lot of times, you know -- 

DAVID: What's happened is they just, they 

just disconnected our line to where we can only call 



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you. 

JIM: Yeah. Okay. 

DAVID: So, you know -- 

JIM: Well, I'll see what I can do. I'll 

give you^n honest word. I'll see what I can do, but - 

DAVID: Are they still going to play that 

message? 

JIM: What message? Oh, yeah, play the 

message on the radio station? 

DAVID: Yeah. 

JIM: Yeah. Okay, let me, let me get that 

taken care of. 

DAVID: Okay. 

JIM: Is Phil out there (Indiscernible)? If 

I need him, I'll send him in. Yeah, okay. (Talking to 
someone else.) The problem with the telephone, David, 
is like this is really a normal procedure, you know, to 
keep a -- keep the lifeline going, you Jcnow, between 
you and me. 

DAVID: Yeah, but our other lines have been 

cut off. 

JIM: Oh, okay. Yeah, I understand. I 
understand. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let me see if -- 
David . 


DAVID: Yeah? 



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JIM; Hold on just a second. 

DAVID: Where'S my -- where's little Koresh 

at? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: You've got all 

four kids, in that house? 

JIM: No, I've got two kids. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: -- transition. 

(Unidentified voices in background not discernible.) 

JIM: Hey. David. 

DAVID: Huh? 

JIM: I need you to help me out on this. 

DAVID: Go ahead. 

JIM: Okay. The commanders got, got the two 

kids and they want to change this room I'm in. You 
know, I've got to move because I'm in this little bitty 
room and I don't have any room, and I've got all these 
people in here. And so what they wanted me to do is 
move across the way. I'm out at the airport. You know 
where the airport is? 

DAVID : Right , yeah . 

JIM: And they want me to move across to this 

other building where there's more room, you know, and 
it'll be quiet. 

DAVID: What's your number? 

JIM: They'll do -- I'll call you with it and 

tell you, you know, no problem. But what I'd like to 



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do before we take a break is just to, you know, get 
those other two kids ready and, you know, send another 
car and get that. And then maybe we could take a 
little break, and then once I get to the new place. 

I'll get back with you. 

DAVID: Okay. Are they going to -- well, 

like you say, then when the next car comes, can they, 
can they bring us in new lines so we don't get cut off 
as much? 

JIM: Yeah, I'm working on that. I'm working 

on that. Yeah, I want to work on it. I'll see what I 
can do for you. 

DAVID: Okay. Now, now, now, now, remember, 

I gave $1,000 to those guys, and I want you to get that 

$ 1 , 000 . 

JIM: Oh, hey, don't worry about it. 

DAVID: Jim, you've got to -- I'm serious., 

JIM: ^ey, let me give -- you got a pencil? 
I'm going to give you this new phone number. 

DAVID; Okay. Hey, Rach, Rachel, could you 
take a, take a note pad and a piece of paper? I've got 
a number for you? Where's the pencil? 

JIM: (Unidentified male voice in backgrotind 

not discernible . ) Really? 

DAVID: Where's the pad with --do you see 


it? 



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JIM; Can we work that, we can help? 

(Talking to someone else.) 

DAVID: Did you get the -- okay, here you 

are, take -- put it on that there -- put it on that 
pad. (Talking to someone else.) What is it now, Jim? 


JIM: It's 799 -- 

DAVID: Seven nine nine 


JIM: -- 0545. 


DAVID: -- oh five four five. 

JIM; Okay? 

DAVID; Seven nine nine -- 
JIM: Oh five four five. 

DAVID: -- oh five four five. 

JIM: Now, I'll call you first, okay? And 

so -- until we know it's clear. 


DAVID: Okay. All right. 

JIM: We're going to send the other car to 

the water tower. 


DAVID: Okay. 

JIM: Okay, so, can you get Scott and 

Chrissy? 

DAVID: Yeah. 

JIM: 'Cause what I don't want to happen is 

they're switching my room and we're in the middle of -- 
and the kids, you know, 'cause I've got to kind of, you 
know, get off for a few minutes. 



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DAVID; Okay, will do. 

JIM: So tell -- 

DAVID; Call ine up as soon as the car gets 

there . 

- JIM: Yeah, but let's hang on until we get 

these other two kids in the car, and then we'll, then 
we'll get off, okay? 'Cause -- yeah. You've got -- 
Who have you got there, Sonja? 

DAVID; Probably. They're not back yet. 

JIM: Oh, Site's not back? 

DAVID: No. 

JIM: Okay. All right, let, let, let me, let 

me call you in a minute. 

DAVID: Okay. 

JIM: I need to, I need to work this out wiith 

the commanders 'cause I, I want to, you know, I want 
(Indiscernible) kids in the driveway and you and me 
ought to talk, you know. 

DAVID; Kids in the driveway? 

JIM: I mean I don't want that to happen. 

You know what I'm saying? I don't want Sit a walking 
dovm the driveway and we're not on the phone. 

DAVID; Oh, okay. 

JIM; You know what I mean. 

DAVID: Okay. 

JIM: And we have the two children. They're 



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on their way here safely, okay? 
DAVID: Okay. 


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JIM: And I'll just -- we'll 

for a few minutes -~ 


just break off 


DAVID: Okay. 

JIM: -- then I'll get back with you. 

DAVID: Okay. Bye, Jim. 

JIM: Okay, Buddy, I'll see you. 


JIM: Do we have transportation over there? 

Do we have transportation to -- no, we're going to get 
them over two kids out first, aren't we? 

DAVID: Good afternoon. May I help you? 


Hello? 


* * * * 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Hello? 

JIM: Hello, Yvette? 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Huh? 

JIM: This is Jim. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay, wait One 

moment. Do you want to speak to David? 

JIM: Yeah, please. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER; Okay. 

DAVID; Okay. 

JIM: How you doing. Buddy? 

DAVID: It's a miracle. 



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JIM: Have you got those other kids ready? 

DAVID: Are the kids ready? Chrissy and 

who's next? Chrissy and Scott. 

JIM: Chrissy and Scott, yeah. 

-DAVID: Got to -- were you calling from the 

new number? 

JIM: No, not yet. I'm going to get -- moVe 

over there in a few minutes. I wanted to get this done 
first. 

DAVID: Are they sending -- oh. Are they 

playing the message on the radio? (Unidentified male 
voice in background not discernible.) 

JIM: He's talking to one of his buds, asked 

him if they played the message on the radio. 
(Unidentified male voice in background not 
discernible.) Yeah, yeah. Could you tell me what time 
they're going to do the movement, so I can tell him -- 
(Unidentified male voice in background not 
discernible . ) Okay . 

DAVID: Who? What? My grandmother? Turn, it 


JIM: He thinks his grandmother is on the 

radio or the TV or something. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE VOICE: Yeah. 

DAVID: Did you hear that, Jim? 

JIM: No, I didn't, David. 



1 DAVID: My grandmother is on an interview. 

2 JIM: Where? 

3 DAVID: I'm trying to get the details. I was 

4 always told by my family that, that I'm kind of 

5 strange . 

€ JIM: Where's your grandmother live? 

7 DAVID: She lives down in Chandler. 

8 JIM: Yeah. 


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DAVID: Chandler's close to Tyler. 

JIM: Yeah, yeah, I know where it is. That's 

pretty country over there. 

DAVID: Oh, yeah. I love that country. I 

used to fish on Lake Tyler -- 

JIM: Oh, did you? Yeah. They've got a 

little train runs down that way. 

DAVID: How do you spell your last name 

again, Jim? 

JIM; C-A-V -- C-A-V -- 

DAVID; All right, just a second. C -- 

JIM: -- A-V -- 

DAVID; Wait a minute. The pen just died on 
me. Looks like a brand-new one, too. 

JIM : Hmmmm . 

DAVID: Can you all give me another pen, 

please? Sherry, try to get this to write. I need -- 
Sherry? Sherry's not behind me, is she? Oh, okay 



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she's -- yeah, yeah. C-A-V? C-A-V? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I'll connect it 

Off. 

JIM: David? 

- DAVID: Yeah. 

JIM: Did you get your pencil? 

DAVID: Yeah. C-A -- 

JIM: C-A-V-A-N-A-U-G-H. 

DAVID: A-N -- 

JIM: A-U -- C-A-V-A-N-A-U-G-H. 

DAVID: -- A-U-G-H. Okie doke. 

JIM: Is she getting the kids ready? 

DAVID: Yeah. Are those other kids there 

yet? 

(Pause) 

JIM : David? 

DAVID: Yeah. 

JIM: Are you okay. Buddy? 

DAVID: Yeah, I'm all right. 

JIM: I just heard you groan a little bit. 

Are the kids -- I don't hear the kids. 

DAVID: You don't hear the what? 

JIM: I don't hear the kids. 

DAVID: Oh, well, you all kids want to make 

some noise? 


JIM: (Laughing) That's usually not 



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1 problem, kids making noise. 

2 DAVID: Oh, there's babies all in here, 

3 hollering. I keep looking at them the last, last time. 

4 JIM: Yeah. You'll see them again. 

5 DAVID: Oh, I know. I promise. 

6 JIM: Who's helping them, Sita or Sonja or 

7 what? 


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DAVID: Is Sita -- yeah, they're back. 

JIM: Is Sita there? 

DAVID: Where's Sita? 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: 

DAVID: She can come here. 

JIM: Yeah, let me talk to her a minute. 

DAVID: All right. 

Sita: Jim? 

JIM: Hi, Sita. 

Sita: Yes? 

JIM; That went smooth, okay? 

Sita: Oh, yes, fine. I just forgot one 

thing to give to the guys. 

JIM: Okay. 

Sita: But I'll give them the next round. 

JIM; That's great, that's great. Now, are, 
are these next two ready 'cause I've got the car there 
waiting, so I wanted to kind of get them out. 

Sita; Okay. Is there ladies watching the 



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JIM: Yes. Oh, yes, absolutely. I've got 

3 two ladies here. 

4 Sita: So you (Indiscernible) I, I gave you 


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the 

milk-and the carob. I forgot to get the honey. 

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JIM: 

Yeah. Give me the info on these next 

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two 


Is it 

is this Scott and Chrissy Mcdsb? 

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Sita ; 

Yes, Scott and Chrissy Mabb. 

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JIM: 

And how old are they? 

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Sita; 

How old are you? Eleven -- 

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JIM: 

Okay. 

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Sita: 

-- and seven. 

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JIM; 

Okay. 

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Sita: 

Scott is 11. 

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JIM: 

Okay. 

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Sita: 

And Chrissy is seven. 

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JIM; 

Okay. All right, good. Why, why don't 

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you 

go 

ahead and get their coats and let them kiss and 

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hug there and say goodbye and take them out because the 

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car 

is 

at the water tower? 

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Sita: 

Okay. 

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JIM; 

Okay? And listen. 

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Sita ; 

Yeah? 

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JIM: 

And then -- I told David I'm going to 

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have 

to get off the phone for a few minutes, but I'll 


be back and, you know. I'll let you talk to them ahd 



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all. 

Sita: Okay. You want to talk to David 

before you go out? 

JIM: Yeah, let me have David. You walk them 

out right now, okay? 

Sita: Okay. 

JIM: 'Cause the car's waiting and I need to 

get the word. 

Sita: Okay. 

JIM: Okay, Sita. Thanks. 

DAVID: Hello. 

JIM; Hey, Buddy, she, she does a good job. 

DAVID: Oh, so they're going to open our 

telephone lines up now? 

JIM: No, I haven't got the word on that. 

DAVID: Oh, this is what they were saying on 

the radio, that -- 

JIM: Oh, really? 

DAVID; Yeah. 

JIM: Listen, this Scott, he's 11 years bid? 

DAVID: Yeah. 

JIM: Yeah. He must be a big boy. 

DAVID: He's, he's kind of small. He's thin. 

Hey, guy, don't worry about it, okay? 

JIM: Yeah, we'll take care of him. Tell him 



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DAVID: Hey, you can take your motorcycle, 

too. You be sure and tell them that one of the 
motorcycles here is yours, okay? All right. 

JIM: We move before we -- okay. 

-DAVID: I'll be sure and tell him 

I that -- when this is all over that the motorcycle's 
yours, all right? Okay. All right. Love you. Bye. 
Come here and give me a kiss. Love you. Remember all 
I taught you, okay? And you're going to be a good girl 
now, right? -- yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to lick 
it. 

DAVID: Okay. All right. Now, Jim -- 

JIM: Yeah. 

DAVID: -- make sure these guys are bringing 

the kids to you. 

JIM: Yeah. 

DAVID: So you make sure you -- when you, 

when you get this that I'm giving to you, you know, and 
you open this up, I want you to tell me exactly what's 
in it, all right? 

JIM: You've got it, I will. 

DAVID: Okay. All right. Have the kids 

gotten there yet? 

JIM: No, uh-uh. They sure haven't. 

DAVID: They haven't gotten there yet. She's 

getting them ready. 



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1 JIM: Hey, David, I really want to thank you. 

2 I appreciate this. 

3 DAVID: Oh, well, I appreciate it. 

4 JIM: You know 

5 - DAVID: I've always had faith in mankind, you 

6 know, that you don't have to always be so beastly. 

7 JIM: Well -- 

8 DAVID: You know? 

9 JIM: -- you're, you're a wise man. 

10 DAVID: I figured, I figured you all would 

11 turn back when I told you there was women and children 

12 here, but, you know -- 

13 JIM: Are they coming? Are they -- got their 

14 coats on? 

15 DAVID: Yeah, they're getting all ready. 

16 JIM: Getting all ready? Here, give me Sita 

17 again. Is she there? 

18 DAVID: Yeah, she's here. 

19 JIM: Okay, let me talk to her. 

20 Sita: Hello? 

21 JIM: Sita? 

22 Sita: Yes. 

23 JIM: Okay, are they ready? 

24 Sita: Yes. 

25 JIM; Okay, you going out now? 

Sita: Are they playing the -- 





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1 JIM: We already played it. 

2 Sita: We didn't hear it. 

3 JIM: Oh. Well, we played it before. I'll 

4 play it again. I mean, I will. 

5 - Sita : Thanks , a lot . 

6 JIM: Okay. Just take them out to the car, 

7 okay? 


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Sita: Okay. 

JIM: Okay. 

(Pause) 

JIM TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON; Losing them. 
What'S happened? They're not there. Have you got 
them? Dead. Okay. Okay. 

JIM: David? David? 

JIM TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I've lost him. 

* * * * 

STEVE: Hello. 

JIM; Hey, Steve? 

STEVE : Yes . 

JIM: This is Jim. 

STEVE; Hi, Jim. 

JIM: Hey, that phone just went -- 

STEVE: Okay. 

JIM: -- off on me. 

STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Where are they 

at now? So, have they been -- the, the other group has 



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1 been picked up, right, the two? 

2 JIM TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Have they picked 

3 them up? 

4 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: The first two, 

5 yes . 

6 JIM: Yeah, the first two we got. 

7 STEVE: Okay. 

8 JIM: But Sita was coming out right now with 


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STEVE: Yeah. I guess they're waiting to 

hear that announcement on the radio. 

JIM: Oh. We played it, though, a while -- 

we'll play it again. 

STEVE; Okay. 

JIM: I mean I'll play it twice for you. 

Just I've got the car sitting there and -- 

STEVE; Okay. 

JIM: -- I wanted to get them, you know. 

STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: He says he'd 

like to get them. He's going to play it twice for us. 

JIM: Steve? 

STEVE: Yeah. 

JIM: Did Sita take them out? 

STEVE: Not yet. She's standing right here. 

JIM: Oh, okay. 

STEVE : She's right here. They're ready to 



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go. 

JIM: Ready to go. The car is waiting. 

STEVE: Okay. 

JIM: So just have her go. Just go on out. 

STEVE: There are four to six guys 

camouflaged right now down at the bam. Honestly, no 
joke. 

JIM: Four to six guys at the bam? 

STEVE : Yes . 

JIM: I don't know where that is. Is thht 

the back bam? 

STEVE: Yes, yes. It's kind of a block, a 

cement block building. 

JIM: Okay. 

STEVE: They're on the property. 

JIM: Oh, on the property. Okay. 

STEVE: They're on the property. 

JIM: Okay. Let me, let me check on this, 

okay? 

STEVE; All right. Okay. 

JIM: Hold on one second. 

STEVE: All right. 

JIM TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Hey, Steve, 

Steve said that there ' s four guys at the bam . Check 
on that. 


JIM: Okay, we're checking. 



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1 STEVE: All right. 

2 JIM: The barn -- 

3 STEVE: Just hold on one minute. 

4 JIM: Okay. Hey, Steve. 

5 ~ STEVE: On the other side of the fence then, 

6 there's two or three guys crouched. 

7 JIM: Oh, which fence now are we talking 

8 about? 


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STEVE: Right in the back. 

JIM: Well, I'll check on it, 

but -- 

STEVE: Okay. But right on the property, 

sure, you know, l mean -- 

JIM: I'll check on it, but, look, Sita has 

guaranteed safe conduct. 

STEVE: Right, I realize that. But, you 

know, they, they always get nervous when, you know -- I 
don't understand why those guys are doing that. We 
want to keep right on moving with this. 

JIM; Right. Well, go ahead and send Sita 
out. The car is waiting. In the meantime. I'll, I'll 
follow up on that. But, you know, if it's way out in 
the back, you know. I'll check on it. 

STEVE: Okay. 

JIM: And, you know, we'll get it fixed. But 

go ahead and send her out. Oh, hey, Steve. Steve. 



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Steve. Are they coming? 

STEVE: Yeah, they're coming. 

JIM: Okay. I just found out -- 

STEVE: Yeah. 

- JIM: -- you're right. There were people 

there. They were police- I just found out, we just 
gave them the word to move back. 

STEVE: Okay, thank you. 

JIM: I'm sorry that happened. 

STEVE: Okay, I believe that. 

JIM: They were, were not supposed to be 

there . 

STEVE: Thank you much. 

JIM: It was a, you know, -- there was a lot 

of people involved and, you know, communications -- 

STEVE: Right. 

JIM: But we got the word for them to move 

back and -- yeah, we're having a shift change. 

STEVE : Pardon? 

JIM: We're having a shift change. 

STEVE : I see . 

JIM: And, you know, we've got a lot of 

people here and everybody's moving around, you know, 
and 

STEVE : Right . 

JIM: -- I told David we're -- they're 



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kicking us out of this building we're in. We've got to 
go across the alleyway here to another place. 

STEVE: Oh, no. Really? 

JIM: It's no problem. It's just more room, 

you know? 

STEVE: Right. 

JIM: And then we're having a shift change 

and there's people moving all around. You know what I 
mean. So, I'm sorry it happened, but -- 
STEVE: Right. 

JIM: --we moved them back. Did Sita, did 

Sita leave? 

STEVE: Just a minute, let me see 'cause she 

went down. 

JIM: Okay. 

STEVE: Yes, she did leave. 

JIM: She did leave? Okay. 

STEVE: Yeah, she left from up -- she left 

from where I'm at here. 

JIM: Okay. All right. Here's what we're 

going to do. We're going to -- 

STEVE: He says, he doesn't --he says, I 

don't want to rush these kids out of here. 

JIM: Oh, no, no. No, no. Here's what we're 

going to do. I'm going to wait till they make the 
hook-up. 



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STEVE; Okay. 

JIM; Okay? And then I'm going to have to -- 
I'm going to tell you we got them safe, and then I'm 
going to have to get off 'cause they're switching my 
office. _Okay? 

STEVE; Okay. How long will that be then 
(Indiscernible) return? 

JIM; You know, half hour, 45 minutes. 

STEVE: Okay. 

JIM: And, and just take a break and, yoii 

know, maybe you and David can get some time and talk 
and -- 

STEVE; Yeah, he said, you know, he was 
giving up, he said, the most precious thing in life. 

JIM; I know. 

STEVE; Yeah, these women. They are, the 
women are giving up, you know, their most, you know, it 
came from their body. 

JIM: I understand and -- 

STEVE; I know you do. Are you a father, 

too? 

JIM: Yes, I have two children. 

STEVE: Oh, that's good. Yeah, you would 

iinderstand. It's hard for him to let them go. 

JIM: Well, he's not giving them up. I mejan. 


he 



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STEVE: Well, you know what I mean, though, 

just even for a, you know -- 

JIM: A little while, yeah. 

STEVE: Exactly. I know, but you know how 

mothers are. 

JIM: You, guys visit and talk and -- 

STEVE: Exactly, right. 

JIM: -- while we take a break, you know. 

I'm hoping maybe David's ministry will go on and I want 
you guys to talk about that and us resolving this 
thing. 

STEVE : Right . 

JIM: You know, we can do it -- 

STEVE: Right. 

JIM: -- and he, and he needs -- Steve, II 'm 

going to tell you something -- where you can help me -- 
he needs some medical attention. I'm really worried 
ed)out him. 

STEVE: Oh, I've been telling him that, but 

he keeps on saying he's fine. 

JIM: Yeah. Well, you, you talk to him for 

me and -- 

STEVE: Okay. 

JIM: -- and just we're concerned. I mean, 

an infection or something, you know. 

STEVE: Right. 



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JIM: We're just concerned about him. I 

mean, you know 

STEVE : Yeah, I know. I was after him even 

an hour ago. 

- JIM: Yeah, we, we, we, we've got enough 

tragedy. We don't want any more. 

STEVE: Right. 

JIM: And, you know, you think about it and 

talk with him. 

I STEVE: Okay. 

JIM: We'll try to get him -- 

STEVE: All right. You want to call me back 

then? 

JIM: I just wanted to give you the word we 

had the children. 

STEVE: Okay, so I'll hang on. 

JIM: Just hang on for just a second. 

STEVE: All right. 

JIM: I'm going to check and see if they've 

got them. 

STEVE: Right. Okay. 

JIM: Hold on one second -- all right, 

they're still coming I guess. I guess they're walking 
down or something. Since -- (Unidentified male voice 
in background not discernible . ) 

STEVE: Jim, I'm just going to -- 



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JIM : Go ahead . 

STEVE: Pardon? I've got another -- I got a 

call and I'm going to just talk to someone here. 

JIM: You've got a call? 

" S'TEVE: Yeah. 

JIM: What is it, a reporter or something? 

STEVE: Somebody that I guess we knew from 

quite a while ago, you know, one that was here. You 
know, are you okay and all that? 

JIM: Oh, one of your, one of your people? 

STEVE: No. Apparently somebody that knew of 

us and, you know, it's just like some of these people 
are calling the radio, well, you know, do the right 
thing, they say, and, you know, say well, you know, 
that's exactly what we've got to do. 

JIM: Yeah. Okay, well -- 

STEVE: Can I call you back? Or, wait, I'm 

going to go talk to him. 

JIM: Well, wait just a second, because I 

wanted to -- let's get the kids done and then I'll get 
right off, okay? You know what I mean? 

STEVE : Yeah . 

JIM; I just want to hook them up and then, 
and then we'll get off for a while. 

STEVE: Just a minute. 

JIM; Yeah, Sita, Sita's out there. 



29 




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(Unidentified male voice in background not 
discernible. ) 

JIM TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Do we, do we 

have them? 

- UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: No. They haven't 

left the compound? 

JIM TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON; They haven't? 
DAVID: Okay, they're -- Jim? 

JIM: Hey, David. 

DAVID: Okay. 

JIM: Where's Sita? 

DAVID: I'm listening to this Dobbs guy tity 

to explain away everything. 

JIM: Where's Sita at? 

DAVID TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Where's Sita, 

is she downstairs now? 

JIM; Okay, they're getting in their -- 
DAVID: They're in the car? 

JIM: Yeah, Sita's getting in her car, I 

think. 

DAVID: Okay. 

JIM: Yeah, okay. That's what Steve said. 

Okay . 

DAVID: Well, you -- the guys down at the 

tower will probably see them. Where I'm at, I can't 
see them. 



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JIM: Yeah, okay. Okay. And the car's 

ori them. Listen, as soon as we hook them up, 
okay, which is going to be in just a few -- two 
minutes, I've got to get off because they're switching 
my office. Okay? 

DAVID: All right. 

JIM: And I'll call you back. We're having a 

big shift change. There's all kinds of police, you 
know, that worked all night and agents that are moving 
around, ambulances, you know. You know, everybody's 
got to go to bed, you ]cnow. 

DAVID; Yeah. 

JIM: You can appreciate that. 

DAVID; Oh, yeah. 

JIM: So everybody's moving around and 

they're kicking me across the alley, so -- 

DAVID; Okay. 

JIM; -- I'll call you back, you know, in 
about 45 minutes. But I want to give you the word 
we've got the children first. 

DAVID ; Okie doke . 

JIM; And then, and then we'll get the 
children to talk to you when I get back on, you know, 
later. 

DAVID: Okay. 

JIM: Okay? 



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DAVID: Okay, I'll let you go now. 

JIM: Hold on, let me tell you I've got them 

first. I don't want to have -- I want to make sure 
I've got them, so that -- yeah {Indiscernible) says -- 
what? They didn't come out yet. 

DAVID TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Where are they 

at? Where are the kids at? Have they left yet? 

JIM: Okay. Yeah. David? 

DAVID: Yeah. 

JIM: I think they're out front. Tell 

I somebody to tell them to come on. 

DAVID TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Tell them to 

go ahead and go down. (Unidentified female voice in 
background not discernible.) 

JIM: Man, you're hurting, huh? 

DAVID: Yeah, Jim, it, it hurts. 

JIM: Yeah. 

DAVID: I won't lie to you. 

JIM: Well, think about -- I want you to 

think about me getting you some medical attention. I 
want you to think about it. 

DAVID: I'm telling you, you've got all these 

guys out there that are just telling everybody that I'tn 
a cult leader. 

JIM; Well, that wasn't us. You know -- 

DAVID: As long as I'm alive, I'm a cult 



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leader. 

JIM: Yeah. 

DAVID: Now, when I'm gore, see, then I'll be 

removed out of the way and people will be free to think 
their own thoughts. 

JIM: Well, I don't want you to be gone. I, 

I want to -> I'd like to see your ministry carry on and 
I'd like -- 

DAVID: My ministry -- I've been in it ever 

since 1965 full force. One out of a thousand people, 
okay? 

JIM: Yeah. 

DAVID: One out of a thousand are interested 

in the Bible enough to learn -- 

JIM: David, I'm sorry. They're coming. 

Site's coming right now. 

DAVID: Okay. 

JIM: Okay? I want to give you the word in 

just a minute. I just want you to think about, think 
about some medical attention. Talk to Steve. He, he's 
your right-hand man. 

DAVID: I've thought about it. 

JIM: He's your right-hand man. 

DAVID: Well -- 

JIM; Listen, you can trust him. You guys 
talk about it during the break, okay? For me, for me. 



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I'm asking you to do it. 

DAVID: Okay. 

JIM: I'm concerned about you. 

DAVID: Yeah. See, you don't understand. 

JIM: Listen, I care ad>out you. I'm 

concerned about you. 

DAVID: I know you care ed^out me. 

JIM: I was able to get -- 

DAVID: I know the system cares about me. 

JIM: No -- 

DAVID: And I know -- look, I've -- look, in 

1988 I was arrested, all right? 

JIM: Um-hum. 

DAVID: Let's get real now. 

JIM: Yeah. 

DAVID: In 1988, we were out here, we got in 

a confrontation and I praised the Lord when I heard 
those sheriff's cars coming, okay? So, when they came 
into get roe, we put our weapons down and we was waving 
them in, 'cause George is the one that was paying Mr. 
Rambo. Now, when they came in, the guys got all out 
and says come on over and let's talk. All right, no 
problem. They were aiming on us. Once we put all our 
weapons down, we came over. 

I saw Mr. Thom. I said, you know, how you 
doing, Mr. Thom? He kind of frowned at me a little 



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bit, you know. See, those guys knew we was out here. 
Anyway, they said now, boys, is this all you got? Yes, 
sir. Yes, sir. Then all of a sudden, get on the 
goddam ground - - and they started kicking at us . 

JIM : Hnunm . 

DAVID: And there was ants all over the 

grovmd. We got bit by red ante, you know. I mean, 
talking e±>out -- now, you know, that's, that's not 
right because they were supposed to have come out here 
and dealt with George. They should, they should have 
never sent us. 

JIM: Yeah, yeah. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: What's going on 

now? 

DAVID TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: A flag? What 

about it? Okay, put up -- Well, go ahead and put up 
our flag. Yeah. 

JIM; You know, I remember -- you were 
talking about '88. Hello? David? 

DAVID: Yeah. 

JIM; Oh, you okay? I want you and Steve to 
talk and, and think about getting some medical 
attention, okay? I just want you to think about it. I 
was able to get all these agents to the hospital and 
get them taken care of, okay? 

DAVID: Uh-huh. 



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JIM: And everybody that got there is good, 

and some of those guys were really tore up. Some of 
them were tore up worse than you and they're all doing 
good. And I, and I'd like to -- you to think about it, 
okay? 

DAVID: Yeah. 

JIM; I mean, it just concerns -- 

DAVID: I've thought adDout it. 

JIM: It concerns me and I want you to talk 

to Steve about it, you know. Will you promise mS 
you'll talk to Steve or -- 

DAVID; Well, I've been talking to him all 

the time. 

JIM: Well, I mean, but about you getting 

some medical care. Get his advice, you know, think 
about it, and, you know, it's a wise man who can change 
hie mind and a strong man who can change his mind. And 
I think you're both of those. 

DAVID; Well -- 

JIM; You know, only a weak man, you know, 
couldn't change hie -- 

DAVID; The seven seals. 

JIM: There's so much inside you. I mean, 

you can do it. 

DAVID: The seven seals, Jim. 

JIM; Yeah, I laaow, David. 



36 



DAVID: Okay. 

JIM: I just, I just don't want you to suffer 

any more. 

DAVID: Well, the children are there, right? 

"JIM: Okay, they're almost together, the 

agent said. Just a minute. 

DAVID: Okay. Well, let me let you go, and 

give me a call back, okay? 

JIM: No, I want to get them just -- I don't 

want any mistakes. If something were to happen, you 
know, you, you guys would feel bad and I'd feel worse. 
So, let's get them together. I'll give you that word 
and then, you know -- 

DAVID: Okay. Well, let me let you have the 
phone with someone else real quick so I can get do -- 
I've got to do some moving around. 


JIM: 

Okay, David. 

Yeah, 

sure. 

JAMIE 

: Hello? 



JIM: 

Who's this? 



JAMIE 

: Jamie . 



JIM: 

Jamie, this is 

Jim. 


JAMIE; 

: Oh, hi, Jim. 



JIM: 

How you doing? 



JAMIE: 

Pretty good. 



JIM: 

Okay. 



JAMIE: 

I think he's 

just 

moving 



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himself up here, trying to move around. 

JIM: Oh, that's okay. I know he's hurting 

real bad. Sita's down there with the kids and we're 
trying to just -- 

JAMIE: Okay. 

JIM: -- get you the word. 

JAMIE: Yeah. Okay, here, here, he's back. 

JIM: Okay. 

DAVID: Okay. 

JIM: Hey, Dave. Did you get more 

comfortable? Oh, Dave. 

DAVID: Sorry about that. 

JIM: Hey, you okay? 

DAVID: Two things I don't want to do, and 

that's laugh and cough. 

JIM: We got the kids. They're safe. We got 

the kids. 

DAVID; Yeah, it's my arm -- thanks. Go 

ahead . 

JIM : You hear? 

DAVID: Yeah. 

JIM: We've got the kids, okay? Everything's 

great. We're going to take a break. It'll be good for 
you, be good for everyone. 

DAVID; Yeah, I need to rest up, get my 


energy going. 



38 


r 

Vi 

1 

2 

there . 

JIM: 

Hey, I love you. Buddy. 

Now hang in 


3 


DAVID; 

: Okie doke. Catch you 

later, Jiir. 


4 


JIM: 

All right, bye. 



5 


" DAVID: 

Bye. 



6 (End of Tape #7.) 

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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURER 
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS 


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TAPE #8 
3/1/93 


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UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #1: When'd you 

call him back? Call him back? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #2; As a matter of 
fact, that little speaker over there -- see if it comes 
on here. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #1: That's what 

I'm trying to do here. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #2: Check and see 

if you can -- 

RECORDED MESSAGE: If you'd like to make a 

call, please hang up and try again. If you need help, 
hang up and then dial your operator. 

(Unidentified voices in the background not 
discernible. ) 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #1: We're going to 

have the speaker set up -- secondary -- 

(Unidentified voices in the background not 
discemible. ) 


UNIDENTIFIED 

MALE 

SPEAKER 

#3: 

Hello, 

, hello. 

UNIDENTIFIED 

MALE 

SPEAKER 

#2: 

Test, 

test, 

2, 3. Test, test. 
UNIDENTIFIED MALE 

SPEAKER 

#3: 

Hello, 

, hello. 

UNIDENTIFIED 

MALE 

SPEAKER 

#2: 

Test, 

test, 1 

UNIDENTIFIED 

MALE 

SPEAKER 

#3: 

Hello, 

hello. 

UNIDENTIFIED 

MALE 

SPEAKER 

#2: 

Test, 

test. 



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test, 1, 2, 3. Test, test. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #1: They're really 

getting 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #3; Test, test, 1, 
2, 3. Go ahead. Test, test, test, 1, 2, 3. How you 
doing? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #2: --on that 

speaker? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #1: Yeah. 
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #3: Test, test, 
test, test, 1, 2, 3. Okay. 

(Unidentified voices in background not 
discernible. ) 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Hello. Hello. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Hello. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Something wrong 

with this phone again. Hello. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Hello. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Who am I 

speaking to? Can't hear you. Can you call back? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, but wait a 

minute . 


you. 


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: I can't hear 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Okay. Okay, I'll 


call back. 



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Hello. 

JIM: Hello, this is Jim. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay, just a 

minute . 

- JIM: Sure. 

DAVID: Hello. 

JIM: David, how you doing. Buddy? 

DAVID: I'm all right. 

JIM: Listen, I've got -- some of the 

children I think just came in and -- 
DAVID: All right. 

JIM: -- I'll have them here in just a 

second. A little blonde-headed gal. 

DAVID: Chrissy. 

JIM: Chrissy, that's it. Yeah. 

DAVID: Yeah. 

JIM: Yeah, she's adorable. 

DAVID: You haven't seen nothing yet. 

JIM: She's really adorable. I think they're 

bringing her over. 

DAVID: Okay, hold on a second. 

DAVID TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Get Kathy. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Hello. 

JIM; Kathy? Hello. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER; Hold 
second, okay? 


on a 



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JIM: Okay. 

FEMALE SPEAKER TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Would 

you go get Kathy's brother, please? 

JIM; Come over here. Are you Chrissy? I'm 
Jim. How you doing? Okay, you want to talk, you want 
to talk to your mom? 

CHRISSY: Yeah. 

JIM: Okay, just a minute. Hello. 

(Pause) 

JIM: Hello. Hello. They laid the phone 

down. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER; Excuse me. I'm 
going right over here with the cord. Want to put it 
around in front of you? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER; Yeah. 

KATHY: Hello. 

JIM: Hello. 

KATHY; Yes? 

JIM: Yeah, this is Jim. Who's this? 

KATHY; Hi, this is Kathy. 

JIM: Okay, Kathy. Is Chrissy your little 

girl? 

KATHY: Yes. 

JIM; Okay, hold on. She's right here. 

KATHY: Okay. 

JIM; Okay. 



6 


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good? 


CHRISSY: Hi, Mommy. 

KATHY: Hi. How you doing? 

C3CIISSY: Fine. 

KATHY: That'S good. They, they treating you 

amiSSY: Yeah. 

KATHY: Okay. Love you. 

CHRISSY: I love you, too. 


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him? 


KATHY: Okay. 

CHRISSY: I'm all right. 

KATHY: Okay. 

CHRISSY: I think that was Brian. 

KATHY: Brian said hi, Chrissy. Did you hear 

Did you hear him? 

CHRISSY: Yeah. 

KATHY: Okay. I love you. 

CHRISSY: I love you, too. 

KATHY: Always. 

CHRISSY: Huh? 

KATHY : Always . Okay? 

CHRISSY: Okay. 

KATHY: Anything else? Chrissy. 

CHRISSY: What's your name? 

KATHY: Huh? 


25 


CHRISSY: Jim wants to talk to you. 

KATHY: Okay. Thank you. I love you. 


Bye- 



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bye. 

JIM: Kathy. 

KATHY: Yeah. 

JIM: She's fine. 

- KATHY : Great . 

JIM: And the Health and Human Services 

people are real good. They're looking after her. Now, 
was there anybody you wanted us to call or -- 

KATHY: Scott's got the address and the phone 

number of their dad. 

JIM: Okay. Scott's got it? 

KATHY: Um-hum. 

JIM: Oh, with him. And he'll be out? Yeah, 

he's coming over shortly. 

KATHY: He, he's with Chrissy. Well, he went 

out with Chrissy. 

JIM: Yeah, okay. How you doing? 

KATHY: Fine. 

JIM: Not hurt? 

KATHY: Oh, no. 

JIM: Okay. I appreciate you working with us 

on it and sending the children out. 

KATHY: I have two more coming out and want 

them to meet up with Chrissy and Scott. 

JIM: Oh, absolutely. Would you tell me 

their names? 



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KATHY 

: Jake Mabb and Brian Schroeder. 


2 


JIM; 

Okay. 


3 


KATHY 

: And Brian is -- well, he'll be 

three 

4 

this week. 



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JIM: 

Oh, Brian's three. Okay. And how is 

6 

Jake? 




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KATHY 

Jake is nine. 


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JIM: 

Nine, okay. Now, hold on just a 


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minute . 




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KATHY 

Okay. 


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JIM: 

What's your name? 


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SCOTT: 

Scott . 


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JIM: 

Scott. Is your mom Kathy? 


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SCOTT: 

Yes. 


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JIM: 

Okay. Kathy, here's Scott. Hold 

on. 

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KATHY: 

Okay. 


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SCOTT: 

Hi. 


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KATHY: 

How you doing? 


19 


SCOTT; 

Fine. 


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KATHY; 

Okay. They've got a lot of people 

21 

out there. 

huh? 



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SCOTT; 

Yeah. 


23 


KATHY; 

All right. Make sure they take 

care 


of you and you take care of her. 

SCOTT; Okay. 

KATHY: Remember what I said, God sits on the 



• • 

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1 throne . 

2 SCOTT: Yeah. 

3 KATHY: I love you. 

4 SCOTT: I love you, too. 

5 -KATHY: Okay. You don't forget that. David 

6 loves you. Okay? 

7 SCOTT: Okay. Jim wants to talk to you. 

8 KATHY: Okay. I love you. Bye-bye. 

9 JIM: Kathy? 

10 KATHY: Yes. 

11 JIM; Okay, they're fine. 

12 KATHY : Great . 

13 JIM: And we'll let the Health and Human 

14 Services people take care of them, okay? 

15 KATHY: If you can get ahold of their dad as 

16 soon as possible, I'm sure he will be glad to drive 

17 right down here and get them, because -- 

18 JIM: Where does he live? 

19 KATHY: Lives in South Dakota. It'll 

20 probedDly take him a day to get here. 

21 JIM; Okay, Scott, do you have your dadi's 

22 phone number? Let me see. Okay, Kathy, we're going to 

23 work this out and we're going to try to resolve this. 

24 So I want you to hang in there with us and try to work 

25 with us, okay? , 

KATHY: Yeah, I know you've been real good 





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with everything. 

JIM: And, you know, I just want you guys to 

hang in there. We'll do -- 

KATHY: Oh, yeah, we're -- morale's high. 

We're all doing good. 

JIM: Great. That's super. But we're going 

to get a good resolution to this, okay? 

KATHY: I know. 

JIM: And, let's see, I need to talk to David 
about, well, I guess the next children we want to send 
out and -- well, would that be Jake and Brian? 

KATHY: Are Jake and -- David, are Jake and 

Brian going next? Yes. 

JIM: Okay. Well, you may start getting them 

I ready. 

KATHY : They' re ready . 

JIM: Oh, they're ready. 

KATHY: Got to put Brian's shoes on. 

JIM: Okay. 

KATHY: And his coat 2uid -- 

JIM: Okay. 

KATHY; -- he'll be ready. 

JIM: Tell me when — i'll give you a few 

minutes, you know, to kiss them and hug them and all 
that . 


KATHY: Yeah, we're doing all that right now, 



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JIM: Okay, that's great. 

KATHY; Just whenever you play the message 
again, we'll be ready. 

JIM: Play the message again. Absolutely. 

We're going to get that done right now. 

KATHY: Okay. 

JIM: What -- how, how many more kids are 

there? 

KATHY; Oh, there's a lot. 

JIM: Yeah? Ten, twelve, fourteen? 

KATHY: I, I, j don't even keep track any 

more. I don't know how many have left, I don't know, 
you know -- 

JIM: Yeah, okay. Okay. Well, I'm kind of 

concerned about David. I know he was bleeding real bad 
and I'm just real worried about him. 

KATHY: Yeah, he's pretty bad. 

JIM: Yeah. I'm real worried about that. I 

don't want him to get an infection or something. And, 
you know, I'd like to get him some medical help, but -- 
okay, are you -- is -- did Sita bring these children 
out? 

KATHY: Yes. 

JIM; Okay. Well, that seems to be working 

well. 

KATHY; Yes. Just remember she's not a kid. 



1 even though she looks like one. 

2 JIM: Who? 

3 KATHY: Sita. 

4 JIM: Sita. No, I, I understand. The agents 

5 have already seen her, you know -- 

6 KATHY: Yeah. 

7 JIM: --a bunch of times and -- 

8 KATHY: Yeah. 


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JIM: -- she's doing a great job and you guys 

are super. This was great. So just keep it up and 
keep, keep positive. Everything's going to work out. 
KATHY: Okay. 

JIM: And you have my word on it now. Just 

work with us, okay? 

KATHY: Okay. 

JIM: All right. Who else is around there? 

Is David there? 

KATHY: Yes, he's right here. He's laying 

down. 


JIM: Okay. 

KATHY: You want to talk to him? 


JIM: Well, if, if he wants a break, 

just hang on with you for a minute if -- 

KATHY: Okay. Yeah, he wants to -get 


I'll 

some 


rest . 


JIM: Okay. Is there anything you need to 



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ask me? 

KATHY: No. I just, I just want to make sure 

they get to their dad, basically, you know. 

JIM: What's his name, can you tell me? 

KATHY: William Mabb. 

JIM: Okay. 

KATHY: And, you know, he, he has already, 

you know, wanted them in the past, so -- 

JIM: Yeah. 

KATHY; -- he -- oh, what's -- 

JIM; Kathy? 

KATHY: Yeah. 

JIM: You need to turn on Radio 1080, KRLB. 

We're going to play the message. 

KATHY: Okay. 

JIM: And I don't want you to miss it. 

KATHY: Okay. It's on right over here. He's 

going to play the message. Okay. 

JIM; What, what, what can I tell the kids 
about when you're going to see them again? They're 
going to -- starting to be, you know, wanting to see 
you. 

KATHY: Tell me them soon. Tell them soon. 

I'll see them soon. 

JIM; Okay. All right. 'Cause, you know, 
they're going to be asking for you and stuff, you know. 



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KATHY: Yeah, especially Brian when he comes 

out . 

JIM: Okay. So, you know, I don't -- 

KATHY: He'S probably going to cry. 

JIM: Yeah. Well -- 

KATHY: But tell him I'll see him soon. 

JIM: Okay. 

KATHY: Mommy will come and get him soon. 

JIM: Okay. Okay. 

KATHY: I know their dad'll take care of 

them. 

JIM: Yeah. Well, he's pretty far away, 

though, isn't he? 

KATHY; Well, you know, legal battles, you 
know, could ensue, but he, he would end up getting them 
anyway. So I'd rather they just go to him. 

JIM: Well, okay. We're concerned, you know, 

for their safety and, you know, I'm sure it'll be a 
little traumatic for them to go with their dad if 
they've been with you. How long have they been with 
you? Their whole life, I guess? 

KATHY; Yeah. 

JIM: Yeah. Has he ever had them? 

KATHY; Well, for a vacation, you )cnow. 

JIM: Yeah. But that's kind of short, isn't 


it? 



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KATHY: Well, yeah. 

JIM: Does he -- has he got a good job up 

there? 

KATHY: He's in the service. 

- JIM: Yeah, okay. The Air Force probably. 

KATHY: Yeah. 

JIM: That's what's in South Dakota. 

KATHY: Right. Rapid City. 

JIM: Rapid City. A little cold up there. 

KATHY: Yeah. 

I JIM: Does he have any other family, 

children, up there? 

KATHY: Yes, he does. 

JIM: Okay. All right. Well, we'll, we'll 

sure try to reach him. 

KATHY: Yeah, he's, he's, he's very well 

capable of taking care of them. 

JIM: Okay. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: As soon as you're 

done, I've got a call. 

KATHY: Call who? I'm talking to Jim. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Are you? 

KATHY: Steve needs to talk to you. 

JIM: Okay. 

KATHY: Okay. 

JIM: Thanks for your help. 



16 


1 KATHY: Okay. You take care of them and get 

2 them to Bill and, and he'll take care of them. 

3 JIM: Okay. 

4 KATHY: I know he will. 

5 JIM: You hang in there now. 

6 KATHY: Oh, yeah. 

7 JIM: We're all going to get out of this 

8 and - - 


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KATHY: Okay. 

JIM: -- come through this okay. You got it? 

KA'THY: Okay. You just, you just keep doing 

your good job. 

JIM: All right. Hang in there.- 

KATHY : Thank you . 

JIM: Okay, Kathy. 

KATHY: Take care. 

JIM: All right. 

STEVE: Hello, Jim. 

JIM: Hey, Steve, how you doing? 

STEVE: Not good because I was downstairs -- 

Hello? 

JIM: Hello. Hey. 

STEVE: He just — his knee hit the, the -- 

look out, look out there. Okay. Yeah, we're not too 
happy because Wayne called me into -- pardon? (To 
someone else.) David is really getting upset because 





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we were downstairs, the telephone rang, his parents are 
on the phone. They were saying a few words to him and 
he was just telling them to be cool, that everything 
was being worked out, and the phone went dead. 

JIM: Oh. 

STEVE: They couldn't call in. Nobody can 

and you can't call out. David said he's going to stop 
the children even. 

JIM: Well, I don't want him to do that. 

STEVE: I mean, there, there's no sense in 

doing that with the phone. Nothing's being said. He's 
talking to them about relaxing and -- 

JIM: Sure. 

STEVE: -- trying to keep these people, you 

know, you know, they're all upset and they don't know 
what's going on. 

JIM: Sure, I understand. 

STEVE: They want to hear the voices and 

we're trying to just say just look, like, you know, 
it's being worked out, but, you know, they like to hear 
it from us, of course. 

JIM: Yeah. I understand. 

STEVE: Can, can you have them open up a line 

again? I mean, in fact, you know, it's -- is it a big 
deal or what? 

JIM: Well -- 



r'\ 


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1 STEVE: David's saying tell them to open up a 

2 line. 

3 JIM: Okay. I'll, I'll have to pass it up to 

4 the commanders, okay? I've got to be straight up with 

5 you. It's going to be very difficult. 

® STEVE: Okay. Well, I'm, I'm going to put 

7 the phone down and you can call me back. Or, if I 

8 don't hear from you in a while. I'll call you back. 


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JIM: Okay. 

STEVE: Go to them, talk to them, because, I 

mean, everything yesterday, I mean, we appreciated that 
you allowed us to talk with some of these stations 
about what we believe in. 

JIM: Right. 

STEVE: Here's David. 

JIM: Okay. 

DAVID: Yeah, Jim -- 

JIM: David, how you doing? 

DAVID: Now, listen to me. 

JIM: Okay. 

DAVID: You guys are telling the public of 

this country that you don't want any blood. All right, 
now, I made a deal with you. You tell these boys they 
better get our lines back operatable, okay? 

JIM; Um-hum. 


DAVID: Or they're going to go to bed every 



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night with the knowledge that they're the one that 
killed these little children. 

JIM: Okay, David. 

DAVID: No playing around any more, okay? 

JIM: I know. Listen, just hang -- 

DAVID: No, you listen. I've been fair with 

you, you've been fair with me thus far. 

JIM: Okay. 

DAVID: But you teil those guys that are 

pranking around with the innocent that there's only one 
thing that makes me mad, and that's when the innocent 
are hurt. 

JIM: I understand. 

DAVID: Now, I made a deal with you with the 

children. 

JIM : Right . 

DAVID: You tell these boneheads, these 

bureaucrats, whatever they are, to open our lines up. 

JIM: Okay. I'm going to see what I can do. 

I know it's painful being cut off from the people you 
love . 

DAVID: No, the thing of it is is that we 

have the right -- the radio stations are saying they 
haven't heard from me since two last night, and you 
know the reason why. People are wanting to call. They 
want to know some things. People want to -- 



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JIM : David - - 

DAVID: You have a communication. We've got, 

we've got three lines here. You're going to be getting 
us another phone. As a matter of fact, we're supposed 
to have what, five lines altogether, Steve? 

STEVE: We actually have three. 

DAVID: Okay, three lines. 

STEVE: We had four -- 

DAVID: So, we can stay -- and they cut our 

cellular out, too. 

JIM: Oh, yeah. 

DAVID: So, you know, tell them guys if 

that's what they want is a big fight -- 

JIM: No. 

DAVID; -- then come on. 

JIM: David, no, we don't want to fight. 

DAVID: Okay, that's what you're telling me. 

JIM: Yeah. 

DAVID: Prove it to me. 

JIM: Well, what we've got to do is releuc and 

I'll see what I can do. But I've got to be straight 
with you. 

DAVID: I'm being straight with you now. 

JIM; You know, that's going to be very 
difficult to do. And — 


DAVID; Well, then this is going to be very 



one of these things? 


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JIM: How many guys? Well, I'll have to 

check on that, I don't know. A couple of guys, you 
know. But there's no, there's no gun on it. There's 
no gun on it. It's strictly bullet-proof. 

STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PARTY: And he said no 

gun on it, it's strictly bullet-proof. I'm sure of 
that. 

JIM: Yeah, it is. That's the reason for it. 

It's not coming in there. We're not coming in, I give 
you my word. It's just a change in the perimeter. You 
know, if we wanted to shoot at you, we could have been 
shooting at you. 

STEVE: Sure, you could. 

JIM: And we haven't done that, you know, 

since you and me worked out that cease fire Sunday 
morning, right? 

STEVE: Seems like it has been going very 

well. That's why -- 

JIM: Right. 

STEVE; — I'm quite surprised about these 
new tactics. 

JIM: Well, you know, we haven't -- 

STEVE: More and more inches is right. 

JIM : But , look , we haven ' t shot at you . We 
want to resolve this thing. You do, too. You're good 



men and you want to resolve it. We're good men and we 
want to resolve it. 


5 


3 STEVE: Pardon? (Unidentified voice in 

4 background not discernible.) Whatever happened with 

5 getting the kids out? 

6 JIM: Well, we want to get the kids out. We 

7 want to continue to get everybody out, so we can -- 

8 STEVE: Here we're talking --We were talking 

9 about you and I were working about getting the kids 

10 out -- 

11 JIM: Right. 

12 STEVE: -- and we had this problem with the 

13 telephone. That's what you and I were communicating 

14 sJsout . 

15 JIM: Right. 

16 STEVE: Now you're telling me about bringing 

17 in these vehicles. 

18 JIM: Yeah. 

19 STEVE: So, I mean, what on earth? 

20 JIM: Well, one thing we're doing is we're 

21 changing the -- 

22 STEVE: I suppose maybe you could bring them 

23 in and we'll just keep the kids and wait and see what 

24 happens . 

25 JIM: Well, one, one reason for it is we're 

changing the inner perimeter to the, to the FBI and 


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they're going to be the ones holding the inner 
perimeter. And the ATF agents are pulling back 
farther. 

STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PARTY: He says the ATF 

agents are pulling back and the FBI are going to be 
holding the perimeter. 

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE IN BACKGROUND: 
(indiscernible) going to come and kill me.) 

CHILD'S VOICE: Are you going to come and 

kill me? 

JIM; Hello? No, Honey, nobody's going to 
come and kill you. 

CHILD'S VOICE: Are they going to come and 

kill me? 

JIM: No. No. Nobody's coming. Steve? 

MR. KORESH: Like I told you -- 

JIM: Hey, David. 

MR. KORESH; Hey, Jim. 

JIM; What? 

MR. KORESH: This is in your hands now, 

buddy. 

JIM; Hey, it's just -- 

MR. KORESH: You're the one, you're the one 

talking to me. Now, let me tell you, I made an 
agreement with you and I told you straight across the 
t2UDle -- 



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JIM: Right. 

MR. KORESH: -- you keep these guys away.^ 

Now, if they go against your will, you can't do 
nothing, can you? 

JIM: No, I can do something. I'm going to 

work with you. 

MR. KORESH: But you told me that you was in 

charge of this. 

JIM: Oh, I'm not the commander. No, I'm not 

in charge. 

MR. KORESH: Okay. 

JIM: I'm just the guy that's talking to you. 

MR. KORESH: Right. 

JIM: I've got all kinds of bosses and 

commanders and generals around here. I mean, I've got 
guys with scrambled eggs and gold leaves and badges 
like you wouldn't believe, and they're all 
heavyweights, from Washington to the governor, you 
know. And, and everybody -- I mean, think about me. I 
get pressure. I've got the news, I've got the 
governor, I've got the vice president, I've got 
everybody in the world -- 

MR. KORESH: You're my, you're my voice then. 

JIM: Well, but, you know, Dave, let me, let 

me ask you to do something for me. Listen to me for a 
minute . 



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I MR. KORESH: I'm listening. 

! JIM; I've got a lot on my shoulders, too. 

MR. KORESH; Uh-huh. 

JIM; And I've had a lot of pressure. 

MR. KORESH; Dh-huh. 

JIM; And everybody's promising me that 
nothing's going to happen to you, okay? Everybody's 
promising me that. I'm telling you nothing's going to 
happen to you. I'm telling you that. Nothing at all. 
You've got to work with me. You are going to see these 
things. I'm not tricking you. They didn't show up 
without me telling you. I went the ex-- I got in a 
battle with the commanders about the guns on there. I 
said don't send anything out there with guns. They 
took their guns off. 

I mean, it's strictly bullet-proof shield, 
that's it. And I know you don't like it. I sympathize 
with it. 

MR. KORESH; I don't mind it. I'm just 
essentially saying that, you know, they're just, 
they're just, like I say, taking their inches. They're 
just, you know --We know who's going to win this deal. 

JIM: You know -- But, listen, you told Gary 

all day that you trusted me. 

MR. KORESH; Oh, I do. 

JIM: Was that true? 



2 


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MR. KORESH: But now you're starting to, now 

you're starting to move off. 

3 JIM: No. No. 

4 MR. KORESH: Yes, you are, Jim. 

5 JIM: No. Listen, I trust you and I'm 

6 telling you -- 

7 MR. KORESH: Yeah, I haven't broken my part 

8 of the deal. 


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JIM: Well, I'm not breaking either. We're 

not coming in. Our part of the deal was we're not 
making any aggressive action. 

MR. KORESH: Stay on the outside of the 

property . 

JIM: Well, I can't guarantee it. I'm going 

to try to see what I can do. I don't know where 
exactly they'll be positioned. What I -- Here's what I 
want you to do for me, okay? Let's just go one step at 
a time. Let the -- You're going to see them. Pass the 
word to all your people. When they stop, I want you to 
call me. 

MR. KORESH: Or you call them and tell them 

where to stop. 

JIM; No, I'm not going to call them. I want 
you to call me and tell me where they are, okay? 

MR. KORESH: All right, we'll do that. 

JIM: All right, you call me and tell, tell 



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me where they are. And then let's see if there's any 
problem with that. And you look at them good and you 
have your men look at them good . There ' s no guns on 
them. There's no guns. 

MR. KORESH: It's, it's dark outside now. 

JIM: Well, you've got night scopes. 

MR. KORESH: That's right, but, like I say, 

over so many hundred yards, then it's -- then you don't 
know what you're dealing with. They've got a .50- 
caliber aircraft barrel on it or something like that 
behind an evasive plate. I mean, you know, you can't 
really tell in certain distances like that. 

JIM: David, listen. I've giving you 100 

percent absolute guarantee, my word, repeat, okay, no 
one's going to take any action. I'm giving you my 
absolute solemn promise, that's it. I'm telling you it 
won't happen. I'm telling you these vehicles are going 
to move up, so that's what's going to happen. 

MR. KORESH; So when are they going to be 

here? 

JIM: When they going to be there? 

MR. KORESH: Yeah. 

JIM: Soon, you know. Next few -- 

MR. KORESH: Okay, once they get situated, 

we'll give you a call and tell you what's happening. 

And then let's start this evacuating children again. 



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JIM: All right. And we -- Listen, I just 

want -- That's great man, I'm telling you. Just hang 
with us. I've got to deal with all these generals 
and -- 

MR. KORESH: All right. 

JIM: -- I'm trying to get them, you know, to 

deal with me. And we took the barrels off to 
demonstrate that we're not threatening you, but, you 
know, we don't want any other agents hurt. 

MR. KORESH: All right. Well, we'll talk to 

you later then, all right? 

JIM: All right. Now, you call me when they 

get stopped, okay? 

MR. KORESH: All right. 

JIM: All right, buddy. 

MR. KORESH: Bye. 

JIM : See you . 

***** 

STEVE; Hello? 

JIM; Hey, Steve? 

STEVE: Yes. 

JIM: Hey, this is Jim. Is David there? 

STEVE: Yes, he is. 

JIM; Okay. 

STEVE: Just a minute. 

JIM: Okay. 



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MR. KORESH: Hello, Jim? 

JIM: Hey, David. I've got this child here, 

Jenessa. 

MR. KORESH: Dh>huh. 

JIM: And, and she wants to talk to her mom, 

I think. 

MR. KORESH: Okay, wait one second now. 

JIM: Oh, here she is. 

MR. KORESH: Okay, wait a minute. 

JIM: All right. 

MR. KORESH: Okay, what I need, what I need 

to know, okay, your guys are moving in, all right? 

JIM: Are they there? 

MR. KORESH: Yeah, they're moving in all 

around us. 

JIM: Yeah. 

MR. KORESH: So they're going to bust us in a 

heart - - 

JIM: No. No, we're not going to bust you 

tonight. No, you have my word they're not. I'm 
telling you they're not. This, this is straight up. 
Hey, would you talk to Jenessa and let her mom talk, 
and then you and I can talk? 'Cause she's been here a 
while and I think she's getting kind of tired. 

MR. KORESH: Okay, let me talk to her. 

JIM: Okay. This is David. 



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JENESSA : Hi , Da vi d . 

MR. KORESH: Hey, how you doing? 

JENESSA : Pine . 

MR. KORESH; Doing fine? 

' JENESSA: Yeah. 

MR. KORESH: Okay, that's good. All right, 

where, where's your sister? You with all your sisters 
now? 

JENESSA; I haven't seen Tamir (phonetic sp.) 

yet, no. 

MR. KORESH; Oh, Tamir ain't gone yet? 

I JENESSA: Yes, she's, she's here. I'll be 

seeing her soon. 

MR. KORESH: Oh, okay. Okay, hold on a 

second. Jenessa, your mother, she's kind of, you know, 
upset right now. 

JENESSA: Okay. 

MR. KORESH: She says she'll talk to you all 

later, okay? Just have faith in God, all right? 
JENESSA: Okay. 

MR. KORESH; Okay, so, you know, are you 

strong? 

JENESSA; Yeah. 

MR. KORESH: That's good. All right, let me 

talk to Jim then. 

JENESSA: Okay. 



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JIM: Thank you. Can I let her go now? 

MR. KORESH: Yeah, she's -- Jay's upset. She 

says she'll talk to them later. 

JIM: Oh, okay. All right. 

- MR. KORESH: Okay, now -- 

JIM: Now, David, I'm getting some kind of 

disturbing reports that, you know, you might be just 
really down. You know, I mean, people are telling me 
that, that used to know you that, you know, you're 
just -- you might sink real low in a situation like 
this. I'm kind of worried about it. 

MR. KORESH: What do you mean, sink low? 

JIM: Well, I mean, what we want to do is we 

want to get these kids out. Then we want to change and ’ 
get the women out, then we want to get the men out. 

And, you know, I want you to make that agreement with 
me . 

MR. KORESH: Well, like I told you, I said 

we're going to get the kids out. Then we'll do some 
renegotiating, okay? Because, you know, like I say, 
you all are saying that the main guy here that's caused 
all this trovible is me, right? 

JIM; Oh, no, we're not saying that. 

MR. KORESH; Well, come on, Jim. 

JIM: No, hey, you're just a guy in charge. 

MR. KORESH; We've been watching all the TV 



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and everything and, I mean, they've got me painted 

bad- Half statements, cpaarter statements, you 

know -- 

JIM: Well, they do that. I mean, they -- 

MR. KORESH: I know, but that, that creates a 

tenor in the public which >•- But anyway -- 

JIM: Well, listen, you, you share with me -- 

Now, I've told you how I felt. You share with me your 
thoughts and concerns about what's going on. I mean, 

I, I guess I'm -- what I'm asking for -- 

MR. KORESH: Is what I want to do -- 

JIM: I want you, I want you to open up to 

me, but I don't want you to, you know, i want you to be 
straight out. I, I can't, I can't decipher the 
scripture. I'm just not a theologian and I just want 
you to tell me straight out what are your concerns, 
what do you, what do you want to do? What can I do to 
help you? 

MR. KORESH: Well, where we're at right now 

is I want all these people to have a chance to think, 
every last one of them, every mem, every woman, you 
know. And I want time, I want time for people to 
think. 

JIM: Yeah. 

MR. KORESH: I want time for people to live. 

I don't want any more people hurt. And I want to have 



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time just to sit here, lay here -- 
JIM: All right. 

MR. KORESH: -- and let whatever happens to 

me happen. But I want these people to have time to 
where, where I'm gone — You know, that may be asking 
too much for you. I know you all want to get in here 
and really bust us up quick, but these people here^ 
they've got to make their own decisions. And if I have 
influenced them, you know, then, like I say, if you 
just give me enough time because --to let these wounds 
take their effect and just let me die -- 
JIM: But, you know -- 

MR. KORESH: Jim, look -- 

JIM: David, listen. 

MR. KORESH: No, Jim, listen. 

JIM: This has been painful for us. Come on. 

MR. KORESH: Jim, listen, listen, Jim, 

there's nothing that hurts me more than being called a 
cult leader, all right? I spoke the truth but you 
don't know that. 


JIM; Yeah, but we didn't call you that. 

MR. KORESH: I know. Jim, listen -- 

JIM: You -- Hey, those news media, you guys. 


come on. 


MR. KORESH: Look, Jim, let me explain 


something. People do have a lot of influence and I 



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understand that . 

JIM: Yeah. 

MR. KORESH: Jeremiah says wound heal that 

trusses from the arm of flesh. So all I'm asking is 
that you '-- 

JIM: But, David -- 

MR. KORESH: -- keep the guys off. 

JIM: Oh, yeah, but let me, let me ask you 

something. The position you're taking, okay, without 
letting us give you any medical care -- 

MR. KORESH: I don't want the medical care, 

all right? 

JIM: I understand, but just listen -- 

MR. KORESH: I've been doing my work ever 

since 1985, all right? 

JIM: Um-hum. But just listen for just a 

minute . 

MR. KORESH: If I'm wrong, people like me 

don't deserve to live, okay? 

JIM: Listen, listen -- 

MR. KORESH: Do you tinders tand me, Jim? 

JIM: David, I do, but I, I've been a good 
listener and I'm just asking you to listen to me for 
just a minute. The way, you know, you've got this 
wound in there and you're suffering, it's almost like 
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MR. KORESH: I asked for it, didn't I? 

JIM: Yeah, but, you know. I'm a Christian 

man and I know about Jesus and he didn't kill himself. 
Jesus didn't hurt himself. 

MR. KORESH: No, he died on the cross. 

JIM: Right. And he died trying to spread 

the word. 

MR. KORESH: Yeah, and -- 

JIM: And 7- 

MR. KORESH: Let me tell you something. 

JIM: -- if you're dying, you can't advance 

the word. 

MR. KORESH: I can't advance the word anyway. 

See, with the news media, with the coverage, you 
understand, slander is something that's been used -- 
Look, the best thing to do right now is to give these 
people a chance. 

JIM: I want them all to have a chance. 

MR. KORESH: Yeah. And those who've done 

injustice, I mean, you know, they've got to, they've 
got to give theirselves over to the judicial system. 

We know that. But, remember, I'm the bad guy, okay, as 
far as the world thinks. So just give these people 
time. You know, send some of these guys home. You 
know, keep, keep a perimeter up. You know, always, you 
know, make sure nobody leaves, you know. 


C 



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JIM: All right, David, let me -- 

MR. KORESH: Give UB time to get hungry, give 

us time to get thirsty. You know what I'm saying? 

JIM: David, will you be straight with me? 

MR . KORESH : I'm straight . 

JIM: Are you going to commit suicide? 

MR. KORESH; I'm not going to commit suicide. 
JIM: Your word? Your word? 

MR. KORESH: My word is the word. 

JIM: You're going to come out of there? 

MR. KORESH: Well, I want to lay here and let 

this take care of me. 

JIM; Well, that's committing suicide. 

MR. KORESH; No, it's not. 

JIM: Sure, it is. It's killing yourself. 

! MR. KORESH; Look -- 

JIM; Jesus didn't kill himself. 

MR. KORESH: Look, let's, let's, let's get 

back on this one thing. God sits on the throne in 
heaven, right? 

JIM; Man, I'm really worried about you. 

MR. KORESH; Listen, Jim, does he or does he 

not? 


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not? 


JIM; Would you -- Let me ask you this. 

MR. KORESH; Question: Does he or does he 



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JIM: He loves you, sure, he does. 

MR. KORESH: No, does he sit on a throne or 

not? 

JIM: Sure, he does. 

MR. KORESH: All right. Does he have a book 

with seven seals? 

JIM: Yes, he does. 

MR. KORESH: Is Psalm 45 the first seal? 

JIM: Well, I'm not sure. But if you say so. 

I'll take your word. 

MR. KORESH: You can't do that. That makes 

you like a cult follower. 

JIM: David, you're being real straight with 

me and I've just got to ask you this question, okay? 

Are you going to let any of your other people kill 
themselves or die in there? I've got to know, buddy. 

MR. KORESH: I'm not going to do that. 

JIM: I've got to know. 

MR. KORESH: We are giving a message. We 

want to give a message and a witness. I want these 
people to have a chance to sit this out, think about 
it , you know . 

JIM; Well, what's going to happen if you 
die? You tell me, if you die from that wound, an 
infection, I want you to tell me what's going to 
happen . 



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MR. KORESH: Well, I'm not going to be around 

any more, am 1, to influence anybody, right? 

JIM: Well, what's going to happen to your 

people? Are they going to walk out? 

MR. KORESH: We have to see, Jim. Like I 

said, I'm not a cult leader. I'm a Bible teacher, 
okay? Nobody ever is committed to do what 1 ask or do 
what I say, okay? People do what they want to do. 

JIM: Yeah. 

MR. KORESH: Okay? Now, if you let the 

people think, you know, they're all scared around here 
now -- 

JIM : Just - - 

MR. KORESH: You've shown them a big arm, you 

know. 

JIM: You know what I'm trying to do? I'm 

trying to let you — I'm asking you to let me look 
inside your people and you to see what's going to go 
on, because unless you do, then, you know, it's going 
to be hard to, to help. 

MR. KORESH: Well, I'm telling you what 

you'll do. Just give us some time, give us time, yOu 
know. That's all I'm asking. Give us time. You know, 
you've all done -- you've all been enraged a lot of 
times, you know. Don't bum our building down. 

JIM: No, we won't do that. 



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MR. KORESH: Don't, don't shoot us all up. 

Give these people a chance before God to weigh out 
whether what they've learned in the scripture is the 
truth or, you know, whether maybe they have second 
thoughts.' But they've got to, they've got to have that 
time. 

JIM: David, if you die, you're leaving your 

people helpless. 

MR. KORESH: Look, they're God's people. 

JIM: But if -- 

MR. KORESH: I'm just an instrument, okay? 

JIM: Yeah. 

MR. KORESH: I'm just another human being, an 

instrument, okay? You don't understand. This is not 
no glory thing. This is life. 

JIM: But if you live, you can spread the 

word. 

MR. KORESH: I cannot. They'll lock me up in 

the jail for 100 years. You know, they blame me for 
everything, you know. 

JIM: But didn't, didn't you get acquitted on 

the trial you had in 1980? 

MR. KORESH: Look, we were innocent. In the 

court session, you're not supposed to have a 
prosecuting attorney and another friend on the jury. 

And the two black guys talked to me later and said that 



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between that black guy and Chebaz (phonetic sp.), they 
hung that. The other jurists knew that I was innocent 
all the way through. 

JIM: But they acquitted you, didn't they? 

MR. KORESH: Yeah. But nothing like this 

happened . 

JIM: Yeah. But you'll still get a day in 

court , come on . 

MR. KORESH: Look, I know, and I've also 

known about money. Come on. Jim, let's, let's just 
talk like this. Let's just say give these people a 
chance to think, okay? 

JIM: Okay. I'll tell you what I'm going to 

do. I'm going to do -- I'm, I'm going to let them to 
think, but I'd like you to start discussing with all 
your people that, you know, just like you told me, 
they're coming out of there. And I want them to get 
their minds right, that they're coming out of there. 

And I want you to set a plan for them to come out of 
there . 

MR. KORESH; Look, Jim -- 

JIM: Come on, buddy. 

MR. KORESH: -- like you said -- 

JIM; Trust me now. 

MR. KORESH: -- a plan. Just let me lay here 

and let nature take its course with me, all right? 



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JIM: Yeah, but you know, you know something? 

MR. KORESH: That may be too much time for 

you. 

JIM: No. 

MR. KORESH: But if you move in too quick, 

then these people are going to retaliate. 

JIM: Listen, I want your folks to have a 

chance in life. And, you know, you know how we were 
yesterday, where we couldn't get anywhere, we didn't 
seem to get anywhere until you and I started to make 
j some agreements about the children coming out. 

MR. KORESH: That's right. And like with 

Gary last night, I kept telling him over and over what 
our plan was, and he didn't seem to understand. So 
then, all of a sudden, what happens is that all this 
time, you know, we've been sitting and talking and, 
and, you know, back and forth, and, you know, that's 
why I'm -- You know, we hear on the, we hear on the TV 
that all the children are out. 

JIM: Oh, well, those TV -- 

MR. KORESH: There is such a, there is such a 

screw-up in communication. That's why I let you talk 
to Daylind (phonetic) 

JIM: Oh, I know. 

MR. KORESH: You know? 

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trying to say is once we had an agreement about what 
was going to happen, you made it happen. You know, 
you've got a strong will, and what I'm saying -- 

MR. KORESH: And I explained to you why. 

Because the children don't have decisions in them. 

JIM: I know it, but, but what I'm saying is? 

if you could make an agreement with your people that 
they're walking out of there and you could -- 

MR. KORESH: I am not going to tell them what 

to do. I never have and never will. I show them out 
of a book what God teaches. Then it's for them to 
decide. 

JIM: David, these, these kids need their 

parents and we want everybody to be safe. How about 
the women? Can -- Will you let them come out of there? 

MR, KORESH: Hey, haven't, haven't Sit a and 

them already come out? 

JIM: Oh, yeah, but I mean, I mean come out 

and actually stay out. 

MR. KORESH: Yeah, but the thing of it is is 

that if they wanted to, they, they could. 

JIM: Well, I, I think they feel like they 

can't because you don't want them to. 

MR. KORESH: No, no, no, no. Let's stop that 

now. 


JIM; Okay, I mean, I think your will is so 



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strong that -- and they love you so much that they, 
they wouldn't go unless you sent them. You know what I 
mean? 


MR. KORESH: Jim -- 

JIM: David, give me a sign and send, send a 

woman with some children. 


MR. KORESH: Jim -- 


JIM: Give me a sign. 

MR. KORESH: -- I'm not going to play that 

game. 


JIM: Come on, give me a sign. Send a woman 

with some children. 

MR. KORESH: Jim, your psychology's really 

rusty. 


JIM: Hey, I'm no psychologist, I'm a 

policeman. 


MR . KORESH : I know . You ' re , you ' re a 

psychologist. You have to have the best psychology to 
be a policeman. 

JIM; I'm a policeman, that's all I am. And 
all I m trying to do is save some people from getting 
hurt . 


MR. KORESH: Okay, exactly. That's what I 

want to do. Now, are you going to give us some time or 
not? 


JIM: Oh, yeah, I'm going to give you -- 



27 


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1 Hey -- 

2 MR. KORESH: Or are these guys going to come 

3 in here and -- 

4 JIM: No, you've got the time, buddy. You've 

5 got it. You've got the time. Now, you're going to see 

6 those vehicles, like I told you, but you've got -- 

7 nothing else is happening. Listen, are the, are the 

8 mothers worried about the kids? Are they upset or 

9 anything? 

10 MR. KORESH: Aren't the, aren't the, aren't 

11 the mothers talking to the children? 

12 JIM: Yeah. Oh -- 

13 MR. KORESH: Jay is. You know. Jay may come 

14 out later, you know. 

15 JIM: Is Jay a mother? 

15 MR. KORESH: Yeah, she's, she's the mother of 

17 Jenessa. 

18 JIM: Okay. 

19 MR. KORESH: She says she doesn't want to 

20 talk to them right now. 

21 JIM: Okay. Would you -- 

22 MR. KORESH: And she might come out, you 

23 know. 

24 JIM: Um-hum. Are we going to get any other 

25 kids out tonight? 

MR. KORESH: Well, I'm thinking about it. I 



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mean, you know, what, what are we doing now? Where are 
we at? 

JIM: You're great, man. Hang in there. 

Buddy. Do it, come on. 

MR . KORESH : Where , where ' s the van at now? 

JIM: Oh, I can get the van there if you want 

to do it. Shoot. 

MR. KORESH: I'll send a couple more out. Go 

get the van. 

JIM: All right. I'll get the van lined up. 

MR. KORESH: Okay. Well, give me a call when 

it gets here. 

JIM: All right. You line the kids up and 

I'll call you back. Let's see, let me look at my watch 
here. I'll call you at quarter to eight, twenty 
minutes . 

MR. KORESH: All right. 

JIM: Is that enough time to hug them and 

kiss them, get their coats, and at quarter to eight 
have them ready to walk out? 

MR. KORESH; Okay. 

JIM; Buddy, I'll call -- Man, you're great. 

MR. KORESH; Bye, Jim. 

JIM ; Thanks . Look , don ' t give up on me . 

Hang in there. 

MR. KORESH: I'm not giving up on you. 



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JIM; All right. Hang in there. 

MR. KORESH: I'm just putting my children in 

your hands. 

JIM: Hey, we're taking care of them, too. 

' MR. KORESH: Okay. 

JIM: And, listen, if you see -- 

MR. KORESH: Hey, you know our phone, we 

can't even call you now? 

JIM: You can't? 

MR. KORESH: No. 

JIM; I've got to give you a number? 

MR. KORESH: No. What I'm saying is that we 

can't call anybody now. We asked you to open up some 
I lines for us. Now we can't call anybody. Every time 
we dial three digits, it goes da, da, da. 

JIM: Yeah, Hey, listen, I've got 

MR. KORESH: Here's Steve. Here. 

JIM; I've got to line these cars up and -- 

STEVE: Jim. 

JIM; Hey, Steve? 

STEVE : I wanted to call you, you know, like, 

say, five, ten minutes ago, and every time I get to the 
third digit now it, it's over, it's done. 

JIM: Oh, all right. I'll fix it. I'll, I'll 

get that corrected right away. 

STEVE : All right. Yeah, because he was 



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wanting to talk, I did, and we were trying to get 
something worked out here. 

JIM: Oh, hey, my apologies. 

STEVE: Okay. 

JIM: I, I, I just --We had a good 

conversation. We're making a lot of progress. And 
I've got to take a break to set up a car. 

STEVE: Okay. 

JIM: And, and hang in there with me now. 

STEVE; I'm -- That's that I've been trying 

to do. 

JIM: Okay. 

STEVE: I want to. 

JIM: Just be patient. I'm giving you my 

word everything's okay. 

STEVE; Okay. 

JIM; Trust me now. Just hang in there. 
STEVE; Okay. 

JIM: Keep everybody calm. We're going to 

get everybody through this. 

STEVE; I'm trying to do that. 

JIM; You're a good man. Steve, hang in 

there . 


eight . 


STEVE; Okay. 

JIM: I'll call you back at about quarter to 



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[ STEVE: Okay. Thanks, Jim. 

! JIM: And then I'm going to get the phone 

fixed. 

STEVE : All right . 

JIM: All right, see you. 

STEVE : Bye . 

***** 

JIM: And he told me he couldn't dial this 

number. Did you check on that? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I haven't checked 

on it . 

***** 

STEVE: Hello? 

JIM: Steve? 

STEVE: Yes. Jim. 

JIM: Hey, how you doing? 

STEVE: Well, I was kind of waiting for your 

call there. 

JIM: Yeah. I'm sorry, I got tied up setting 

up that car. 

STEVE: Okay. 

JIM : I've got a car out there that ' s ready . 

STEVE: Oh, it's already out there and ready? 

JIM: Well, no, it's, it's not at the water 

tower, but it's, it's just about, you know, about an 
eighth of a mile. 



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STEVE: About an eighth of a mile? 

JIM: Um-hum. Have you got the kids ready? 

STEVE: We're a little -- Jim, man, I mean, 

you know, we thought we were getting it worked out 
again, but tell me if it's true or false, we just heard 
on the radio that they're planning on hitting us at, at 
eight o'clock, which is in three minutes. 

JIM: Oh, not true. You stay with me. 

We'll, we'll talk. Nothing'll happen. I'm serious. 

STEVE: I mean, I believed you from -- 

JIM: Absolutely. 

STEVE: -- the beginning. 

JIM: Oh, that's baloney. I'm telling you, I 

don't know where those people -- I think they just sit 
there and make up stuff. They make up stuff. 

STEVE: I know it. Well, even about David. 

There was this -- Remember back in '87 this crazy 
what's his name dug up a body. Roden? 

JIM: Roden, yeah. 

STEVE: They said we did that. 

JIM: Oh. 

STEVE: I mean, it's incredible. I mean, I 

mean, the news is just ripping us apart with things 
that aren't even remotely close. 

JIM: Well, I'll tell you what. When we -- 

After we resolve this thing, you're going to have a 



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chance to clear all that up. And I -- 

STEVE; Well, I hope so. 

JIM; I hope you do because it really makes 
me angry the way they try to slander you and 
everything. And it's %nrong, but, you know -- 

STEVE: Well, you know, a lot of these people 

they've having, you know, they're, they're 
trying to think and decide what they want to do. You 
know, there's a lot of them here that are that way 
and -- 

JIM: Yeah. 

STEVE; And I heard what he had to say and 
he's said it before. And, you know, a lot of them 
are they're so puzzled and confused and -- 

JIM: Yeah. Well, I understand that. I 

really -- And I sympathize. 

STEVE: And they're saying that he's up and 

walking around. That's baloney. Every time you -- 
He's never moved. 

JIM: No, I know he's never moved. 

STEVE: You can even tell by his voice. I 

mean, I don't get -- I don't even know where they got 
that from. 

JIM: Steve, let me ask you something 

straight -- 


STEVE: Yeah. 



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JIM: -- straight up, okay? 

STEVE: Okay. 

JIM: I'm worried about David. I'm concerned 

about him. I, I feel like his wound is going to get 
infected. I've talked to him directly about this. 

STEVE: Right. 

JIM: I feel like he might die. If that 

happens, what, what are you going to do? 

STEVE: Well, what I'm going to do -- 

JIM: Are you going to, are you going to let 

me -- 

STEVE: Well, I'm going to keep on 

communicating with you. That's why I wanted to, you 
I know, right from the beginning, right with the 
children, right on through to see what these people 
want to -- I want to try to help everyone make up their 
mind. 

JIM: Yeah, but I want you to walk out of 

there with everybody. 

STEVE: Well, I'd sure like to. 

JIM: I mean, that's what we want to do. And 

I, I want to save David and you want to save David. 

STEVE: But he really -- This is true. 

JIM: I mean, let's, let's get down to the -- 

We've got to get down to the brass tacks. You know, 
when I was in Tennessee, we used to say we've got to 



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see how the cow eats the cabbage here, you know. 

STEVE : Right . 

JIM: 1 , I don't want to dance around with 

you. I mean, I am not -- I'm just a policeman and I 
don't want to see nobody hurt. 

STEVE: Yeah. 

JIM: And I told -- I asked David straight 

out what are you going to do, Dave? I mean, Jesus 
didn't commit suicide. 

STEVE: Well, he doesn't want to do that. 

JIM: Yeah, but I'm afraid he's letting that 

wound draw him weaker and weaker. He's going to get an 
infection. He's going to get where we can't bring him 
back. He's going to get where we can't -- 

STEVE: I mean, after all the slander in the 

world and everything he's gone through, I mean -- 

JIM; The guy's gone through so -- 

STEVE; All he's wanted to do is speak and 
open up and love --to show people what, what God's 
going to do, bizarre as it seems in town. 

JIM; He's got a chance to make a difference. 
He's got a chance to make a difference now and, and you 
have a chance. 

STEVE: Let me ask him, do you want to talk 

to Jim? Pardon? (Unidentified male voice in 
background not discernible.) He said all this 



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excitement's getting to him. He looks pretty weak. 

JIM: Hey, I wish we could, I wish we could 

fool all those news reporters and just -- with their 
reports on the attacks and you all could just all get 
in a group and walk out. And, you know, I really wish 
we could just get this thing resolved peacefully. 

STEVE: Well, that's what he -- You know, 

that's what they want to do, but they're, they're -t- 
Actually, the truth is they're terrified. 

JIM: They're terrified? 

STEVE: Well, yeah. 

I JIM: Yeah. 

STEVE: I mean, you know, a person doesn't 

want to say that, but, you know, they are. 

JIM; Yeah. I understand. 

STEVE: They're afraid to move. They've seen 

all the movement outside, you know, the vehicles. Not 
the three, we heard on the radio that another four 
OT five are coming from wherever -- 

JIM; Well, that -- You know, all that 
perimeter stuff, Steve, it really -- I, i appreciate 
your concern, but I'm telling you it's nothing. This 
thing is inside. I mean, it's inside you and, and, and 
David. If you want to -- If you guys wanted to get 
together and walk out, it's over. 

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has been, right, in the whole afternoon. 

JIM; Well, I know. But, see -- 

STEVE: You're just keeping on saying well -- 

And they're saying they're afraid to make any move 
because of what, you know, everybody's listening to the 
radios and all that. 

JIM: Yeah, that's a bunch of baloney, 

though. The radios don't control us. 

STEVE; I know they don't, but, you know, 
there are -- and there are many things that we have 
hfisrd them saying that ended up being so, you know. 

JIM: Yeah. That, that's all baloney. And, 

look, I'm looking at my watch and it's two minutes 
after eight . Is anybody assaulting you? 

STEVE : No . 

JIM; It'S not true. It's baloney. I'm just 
trying to put a straight, you know, be as straight as I 
possibly can. 

STEVE; Yeah. 

JIM; You know, you guys are knowledgeable 
theologians and stuff and it's hard for me to talk on 
that level. I mean, I don't understand all those 
things. I mean, I appreciate them, I'm a Christian, 
but you know what I'm saying. 

STEVE; Yeah. You know, I would care about 
you whether you were or not, 'cause, you know. 



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everybody follows the dictates of their conscience and, 
you know, they try to do it the best they can with what 
they see, where they're at in this life and I don't -- 
You know, I've never condemned or judged a person for 
that. I~ mean, one thing I have learned from the Bible, 
it says judge not that he be not judged. So I doni't 
3cnow what makes auiother person tick, you know. It's 
not been given to me to look at another and then say 
they're right or wrong or whatever. 

JIM: Isn't, isn't, isn't there teachings 

also that sometimes, you know, you make peace or throw 
down the sword or, you know, you, you love? And that's 
what you guys are trying to do. 

STEVE; Well, that -- You know, like, you 
know, that's what -- That hasn't even come up, you 
know. We've been talking about a lot of issues, we 
really have been, and -- 

JIM: Okay. All right, just a minute. I'm 

sorry, Steve, wait a minute. He's hollering at me. 

Okay. Hey, they're ready to send the car up. Would 
you just tell -- ask David to pick what kids he wants 
and maybe start getting them ready? 

STEVE: Okay. Just a minute. (Unidentified 

voices in background not discernible.) 

[gap] 

STEVE: It's very confusing to know even what 



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to do. 

JIM: Yeah. Well, look -- 

STEVE: The mothers, you know, they're 

standing there scared even -- You know, he, he's been 
saying well, do you mind sending your two now and, you 
know, some of them are, are talking about they don't 
know if they should go along now or what, you know. 

JIM: Why don't they all come in a group? 

I'll guarantee -- 

STEVE: Well, see, some of them want to, but 

there's some that don't. And they're trying -- You 
know what I mean? They're, they're confused. 

JIM: Okay, I understand. And let's -- Maybe 

we -- I don't want to move too fast. 

STEVE: You know what I mean? It just 

happened yesterday. That's why -- And, you know, there 
was starting -- they were starting to calm down 
because -- I'll tell you what, the greatest relief came 
was when you started talking to us the way you were all 
the way through and, and last night. I mean, everybody 
felt good about it, they did, about you and the whole 
thing. And then with Gary, well, you know, there was a 
little bit there, but when you got back on the phone, 
we thought we'd just continue right on with it. 

JIM: You know, I've talked to all these 


commanders . 



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STEVE: But I'll tell you the truth and, you 

know, it kind of freaked us out, though, about those 
lines, because, you know, they're parents, they wanted 
to talk to their kids -- 

JIM: I appreciate that. 

STEVE: -- and say come on out and, you know, 

we love you and all that. Some of them are here saying 
they wanted to talk to their, their folks yet. And, so 
I mean, I didn't know what to say to them. That's why 
finally we get on the phone and say well, can't you 
leave these lines open for us. 

JIM: Yeah. Well, let me ask you this, 

Steve , 

STEVE; Okay. 

JIM: If, if some of the people, some women 

and maybe some children, wanted to come out, maybe they 
could get in a group and walk out. I'll guarantee 
their safe conduct. They could call you, they could 
tell you we're fine. 

STEVE; Okay, I'm sorry. I didn't want to 
interrupt you but there is a mother here, she wants to 
send her two out right now. 

JIM: Okay. Let me talk to her. 

STEVE: Okay, just a minute. What, what's -- 

And Jamie? (Talking to someone else.) Okay, there's 
two that -- two of the mothers that want to send each 



1 


out one right now. 


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JIM: All right, listen -- Okay, Steve. 

STEVE: Okay, yeah. 

JIM: Now, let tne ask you a question. 

^ STEVE: Okay. 

JIM: Does that mother want to come out? 

Just ask her. 

STEVE: They're sitting there talking, you 

know, they're down at the other end. I'm looking at 
them from a distance and I, I see them talking, but I'm 
not sure what they want to do. 

JIM: I don't -- I mean, okay, listen -- 

I STEVE: You know, a person, you know, I'm 

waiting to see what they want to do. We've told them, 
you know, you think through it. You know, you chose to 
come here. This happened, you know, we didn't want it 
to .happen, so, you know, they're all giving thoughts to 
what they want to do and, and, in fact, we're kind of 
waiting to see what do you want to do. That's why 
David, he's so tired of it all that -- i heard what he 
said and, you know, he wants them all to be so free and 
to be able to say well, okay, it is or not and -- 

JIM: Well, listen, Steve, we want them to be 

safe and we want them to be with their kids. And David 
told me, now, he told me this many -- five times, okay? 

STEVE: All right. 



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JIM; Now, this -- there's a guy that's never 
broke his word to me. 

STEVE: Okay. 

JIM: I don't care what the newspaper said, I 

don't care what the radio says, I'm just telling you 
what Jim Kavanaugh says, and every time he told me 
something he stood by it. 

STEVE : Right . 

JIM: And he told me that if there was 

someone in there who wanted to come out, he would let 
I them come out . 

STEVE: That is -- That always will be that 

way. 

JIM; Okay. Now, so what I'm asking is as a 
sign of good faith and -- 

STEVE : Just a minute . 

JIM; Yeah? 

STEVE: Oh, Brian and Jake. Oh, excuse me, 

Brian and Jake, did they ever come? 

JIM: Oh, Brian and Jake. 

STEVE: I guess not. In fact, they were -- 

Remember, you -- we were talking to you and you never 
got back to us on that, 'cause they're still -- i just 
found out they were -- all this time they've been 
standing there waiting. 


JIM; Yeah. 



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STEVE: I didn't know that. They're down at 

the •- or near the entrance even. 

JIM: Are they, are they ready now? 

STEVE: Yeah. 

^ JIM: Okay. 

STEVE: Yeah. I didn't even know that. They 

said -- They told me they've been waiting all this -- I 
totally forgot about it myself. 

JIM: All right. Well, we were supposed to 

get those two earlier, right? 

STEVE: Exactly. 

JIM: Okay. Well -- 

STEVE: And you said -- 

JIM: -- why don't you do this, Steve? 

STEVE: Okay. 

JIM: Since the other mother was anxious to 

get their two -- 

STEVE : Right , 

JIM: -- put their coats on them -- 

STEVE: All right. 

JIM; Clear it with David, now. I don't -- 

STEVE: No, he said -- No, he -- 

JIM; Okay, he said -- 

STEVE: --he agrees, he says -- 

JIM: Then put those four kids together, 

'cause we were supposed to get two earlier and we 


I 



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messed up. 

STEVE: Those, those two, they're still 

talking now. They don't -- They're trying to figure 
out should one send her two. They were talking about 
maybe sending a little one with an older one. That's 
what they're working on, and they said send these two. 
And they're trying to decide. You know, it's like they 
want to hug them yet and hang on -- 
JIM: Sure. 

STEVE: -- another minute or two. So -- 

JIM: They're good, they're good mothers. 

Come on. 

STEVE: Okay, so the two are ready. Brian, 

how old is he? How old is Brian? Two years old. And 
Jake, he's how old? Did we give you any information on 
them? 

JIM: No. 

STEVE: Okay, Jake is nine. He's nine years 

old. 

JIM: Okay. 

STEVE; And they're brothers to Chrissy and 
to Scott that already, you know, you have them with 
you. 

JIM: Okay. 

STEVE; Let me -- I'm going to try to help 
them get going here. I guess they're, they're still -- 



(Unidentified female voice in background not 
discernible.) Yeah? Which one? 


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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: David. 

STEVE: Oh, they were wondering what 

happened, how come they're not playing that message any 
more on the radio. 

JIM: We did play it. Do you have the radio 

on? 

STEVE: Yeah, they do, they do. 

JIM: Okay. We need the, we need the message 

played. They didn't hear it the last time we played 
it, the scripture message. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: You want the 

message played? 

JIM; Yeah. Tell -- 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Can we get the 

message played? 

STEVE; Jim. 

JIM; Okay, you've got -- Who'd you tell? 
Okay, okay, we're taking care of it. 

STEVE: Okay, good. 

JIM; They did play it. I don't know, maybe, 
you know, you missed it. 

STEVE: Yeah. 

JIM; But is -- those other mothers there? 
STEVE: They're over at the other -- I can 



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see them. They're a little distance away from me. 
They're over there. I can see them talking and 
discussing it right now. 

JIM: Sit the phone down and talk to them, 

and if they want to send them with Brian and Jake, 
because we messed up, we'll, we'll -- you know, and 
David said it's okay, then we'll take those four. 

STEVE: I, I think he wants to keep on going 

like he was. I see him over here motioning, trying to 
have these two get another two ready so that they can 
go right, right almost after. 

JIM: Yeah, okay. Yeah, two by two's fine. 

STEVE: Okay. Let's -- Okay, let's get these 

two. Where are they at now? 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Brian and Jake. 

STEVE: Where are they? 

JIM: Can you -- 

STEVE: It just said on the radio that 

there's only 10 children here and they already have 
them, which is -- I believe you're going to find out 
how many. There are a lot of them. 

JIM: That's not true. We know that. 

STEVE: Okay. 

JIM: You guys told me that wasn't the case. 

Okay, can we -- 

STEVE: Okay. 



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JIM: Let me check on the car. Hold on, 

Steve . 

STEVE : All right . 

JIM: Have you got the car? 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah. 

JIM: Okay, are the kids ready to walk out? 

STEVE: Are they ready to walk out now? 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes. 

STEVE : Yes , they are . 

JIM : Okay . 

STEVE: Sita'B right here. 

JIM: All right. Well, let me talk to her. 

STEVE: Okay, here she is. 

SITA: Jim? 

JIM: Sita, how are you? 

SITA: Jittery, but -- 

JIM: Listen, let me tell you something, 

don't be jittery and don't be scared. All that reports 
on the radio is rubbish, okay? You hear me? 

SITA: Yes. 

JIM: The, the -- You will see some vehicles 

out there. I told David and I, and I told Steve and 
they know that it's nothing, okay? Nobody's coming in 
there. Now, I've got a car at the -- I'm going to send 
it to the water tower right now. 

SITA: Okay, we'll see you down there then. 



46 


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JIM: Hey, listen, let me ask you something? 

SITA: Yeah? 

JIM: Do you want to come out of there with 

the kids? 

SITA: Hey, I got, I got lots of kids to 

bring . 

JIM; Okay. Well, David said anybody who 
wanted to come out could come out. Well, you ask him. 

1 already asked him and it's up to me. 
JIM: Okay. 

SITA: Right now I'm concerned about the 

children. 

JIM: Well, why don't you bring the -- your 

kids and come out? 

SITA: I, I was the first one. 

JIM; Okay. 

SITA: See, me, I was the first one. Crystal 

and Angelica. 

JIM; Right. I know, yeah. I know, you, 
you're doing great. You're working with us. 

SITA; And, you know, I was tempted -- I love 
those -- I love all those kids. 

JIM: I know. They need you. These -- Let 

me tell you something, Sita, these kids need you. They 
need all their mothers. I wish you could look at -- I 
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difficult because, you know, what you say you want to 
do, you're telling me you don't want to do. 

JIM: Well, no, I didn't say that. Do I have 

one, one more little children in here? Is there one 
more child here? No, we, we already brought him in. 
We're bringing another child in? Okay. (Talking to 
someone else.) I have another one of the children here 
to talk to -- 

DAVID: Well, get on the ball with that other 

stuff then. 

JIM: Okay. Well, I'm going to see what I -- 

DAVID; Here's Steve. I've got to get some 

rest, Jim. 

JIM: Okay. Hey, listen. Hey, listen. Just 

hang in there with me, okay? 

DAVID: All right. 

JIM: Just hang in there, all right? Hey, 

we'll get your message out when this thing's all 
resolved. 

STEVE: Hello, Jim. 

JIM: Hey, Steve? 

STEVE ; Yes . 

JIM: Let, let me call you back. I'm trying 

to work on a few things. 

STEVE ; Thank you . 

JIM; Okay. 



# 




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STEVE: Thank you. Okay, bye. 

***** 

STEVE: Hello? 

JIM: Hey, Steve? 

STEVE: Yeah. 

JIM: This is Jim. 

STEVE : Yes . 

JIM: How you doing? 

STEVE ; Not bad . 

JIM: Is David there? 

STEVE: Yes, he is. David, you want to talk 

to Jim? He wants to know what you're doing now? 

JIM: Well, one thing I wanted to do is I 

wanted you to give me the phone number of that line 
where you're having the trouble. 

STEVE: He wanted us to give the phone number 

of the line we're having trouble with. Actually, all 
of them, 'cause none of them are operating now, except 
for one, the one you're talking to me on now. It's the 
only one that I can call or you — and it's only to 
you. 

JIM; Okay. Well, I wanted you to give me 
those numbers, but I still need to talk to David, if I 
could . 

STEVE; Okay. The numbers -- pardon? 


(Unidentified voice in background now discernible.) 



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They just said it on TV, that's there only one direct 
line open and to you guys. 

JIM: Oh, really? 

STEVE: Okay, so, the first number is 863- 

5663. 

JIM: Okay. 

STEVE: We haven't been using that one. We 

didn't -- We don't have it plugged in, so I guess it 
doesn't much matter, but -- 
JIM: Okay. 

STEVE; And bring a phone the next time, 
also. And some cord. 

JIM: Let me see what we can do. 

STEVE: Okay, 'cause this, this thing is 

poor. The other number is a cellular phone, is 744- 
2662. 

j JIM: Um-hum. 

STEVE; And then we have 7 -- or 863-5252. 
JIM: Okay. All right. All right, I'm going 

to give these to the technical guys and -- 

STEVE; And there's one other one, come to 
think of it. The other one is -- the one that was cut 
off by -- with Wayne was 863 — and I believe it's -- 
what's Wayne's number? 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Five nine seven 

nine . 



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1 STEVE: -- 5979. 

2 JIM: Okay. Okay, I'll, I'll pass it on to 

3 the technical guys. 

4 STEVE: Thank you much, Jim. 

5 JIM: But, Steve, I, I -- 

6 STEVE; We don't even care if you monitor dr 

7 whatever else -- 


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JIM: Okay. 

STEVE; --.because, you know, it's to do with 
what we believe. 

JIM; I understand. 

STEVE: Okay, good. 

JIM: But can I talk to David? 

STEVE ; Sure . Just a minute . 

DAVID: Hello? 

JIM: David. 

DAVID: Yeah. 

JIM: Hi. Listen, we've got a change we've 

got to talk about. 

DAVID: All right, 

JIM: Okay? Now, listen to me before you say 

anything, okay? We're having a change in the field 
with these tactical commanders, okay? 

DAVID; Uh-huh. 

JIM: You know, because all the agents were 

shot and, you know, we're getting a lot of pressure. 



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We don't want nobody else hurt. We've got the FBI in 
here supporting us and, you know, the state police and 
the National Guard. And you know that, we talked about 
that yesterday. 

DAVID: Yeah. 

JIM: Okay. Now, the tactical commanders are 

going to move the perimeter up. 

DAVID: No, you keep them back. 

JIM: Well, let me, let me, let me tell you 

what -- the reasons and -- 

DAVID: I know what the reasons are, Jim. 

JIM: No, David, look -- 

DAVID: Okay, you want to kill us, come and 

kill us, Jim. 

JIM: No. Hey, David, no, we're -- this is 

not it. Now, let me tell you why. 

DAVID: Jim, let's stop playing around. 

JIM: No, let me tell you what we did. Let 

me finish. Come on, give me a chance, okay? 

DAVID; They told -- Gary told us all last 
night they weren't aroimd here. All the night vision 
we saw them, we saw them down there digging in. Out by 
the bam, out in the back, there are snipers. They've 
got scopes. I mean, come on. 

JIM; Hey, they're not going to do anything. 

DAVID; Oh, Jim. 



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JIM: David, they're not. I can walk you out 

of there if you want out. And I can -- nobody's going 
to do nothing to you. 

DAVID: Hey. 

JIM: But let me tell you what's going to 
happen, okay? We're going to move some of these big 
vehicles up to the tactical position, okay? Defensive 
only, okay? 

DAVID: No. 

JIM: One thing that's worrying the 

commanders were all those people that were in the bush 
and all those people moving arovmd there. They've got 
these vehicles that'll protect their men. We made them 
take the gun barrels off them. There's no gun barrels 
on them, okay? You know, they have a big gun on them. 
You guys have a lot of heavy weapons in there and some 
of the, you know, the troops want to be protected. 

DAVID: So stay back then. 

JIM: Well, but they, you know, they've got a 

duty that -- 

DAVID; Look, let's Stay back, Jim. Let's 
get my kids out and we'll start talking again, all 
right? 

JIM; David, I'm afraid they're probably 
going to be moving before I can stop them. 

DAVID; Well -- 



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JIM: I don't want you to -- I want you to 

know they're not coming -- it's strictly they're taking 
a position — 

DAVID: Look, we already discussed -- you 

already told me they were going to do nothing until you 
gave them the okay. So, like I say -- 

JIM; Well, they're not coming. When I say 
that, I mean they're not coming in there. 

DAVID: But they're moving up closer. They 

were coming in close last night. I had to do 
everything I could to keep the guys off of them. 

JIM: Yeah. Nothing is happening except 

they're just changing positions and perimeters. They 

don't want anybody to be able to come in and bother 

you. They don't want anybody to come out, that's the 

truth. We don't want anybody to come out unless we 

agree. And we have set up — we're just setting up a 
defensive position and nothing progressive, nothing for 
attack. 

DAVID: Who's firing guns? 

JIM; We're not firing any guns. 

DAVID; Jim, like I say, I figured eventually 
it was going to get to where you all was going to start 
cheesing -- 

JIM; No, hey, we're not cheesing. 

DAVID: In your conversation. You're going 



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I to take another inch, another inch. 

JIM: No, listen, I'm trying to tell you this 

in advance as a sign of good faith. I didn't want you 
to think I was tricking you. I'm telling you this is 
going to happen. 

DAVID: Yeah. 

JIM: I'm being straight up. You're not 

going to see the vehicles drive up and say Jim lied. 

I'm telling you they f re coming because they feel 
they've got change their, you know, perimeter. And -- 
DAVID: They're going to come on our 

property, in other words? 

JIM; Well, I don't -- I'm not sure that's 
going to happen. 

DAVID; Well, get the details and call me 

back. 


JIM; Well, look, I had them take off the gxin 
barrels to show you there's no -- 

DAVID: Come on, Jim. 

JIM: Huh? 

DAVID; I said come on, Jim. The perimeter 
is our property line, okay? We want these guys off our 
property line. 

JIM: Okay. Well, I'm, you know, I'm going 

to see what I can do. I can't -- 

DAVID: If they want to fight, we'll fight. 



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JIM: I can't make that promise, David. 

DAVID: Okay, they, they want to kill us, 

they've got the big guns now. 

JIM: Nobody wants to kill you. 

DAVID; Hey -- 

JIM: Nobody wants to kill you. 

DAVID; Jim -- 

JIM: Trust — hey, I'm not going to let 

them -- nobody's going to kill you. All we're doing is 
chcuiging a position. It's going to look like a lot of 
activity. They're not coming in there. Nobody's 
coming in there. 

DAVID: Then tell them to stay off our 

property . 

JIM: Okay. Well, just bear with me. 

DAVID: Or there are going to be some tears. 

JIM: No, let's not have any trouble. Come 

on, you can work with me. 

DAVID: Yeah, come on, you can work with me, 

Jim. 

JIM; Come on, David. 

DAVID; We've got a deal going now with the 
children getting out. 

JIM: Yeah. 

DAVID; Okay? Now, if that don't mean 
anything to you or these hotheads, then we'll have to 



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deal with that later in the judgment, won't we? 

JIM: No, we want to get the kids out. We 

want to get everybody out. And I don't want anybody to 
get hurt . 

DAVID: Like I aaid, do what I say then. 

JIM; Not any of your people. 

DAVID: Then do what I say, Jim. Otherwise, 

come on in here and wipe us out. 

JIM: No, that's not going to happen. 

Nobody's coming in there to wipe you out. 

DAVID: Get on the phone and call those guys 

and tell them let's finish up our plan and -- they've 
got plenty of time, you know, to move their tactical 
stuff after the kids are out, you know. You don't needl 
to be messing around right now, like a bunch of little 
Boy Scouts. 

JIM: Well, David -- 

DAVID: They think they're mature, they think 

they're men. They've got logical thinking. They, they 
think they love the innocent. All right. 

JIM; Well, David, let me ask you, how many 
kida - you won't tell me and 1, i don't know how many 
more -- 

DAVID; You're going to find out. 

JIM: Well, I know, but why is that a secret? 

We're just trying to help get them 


out. And, and, you 



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know, I can't give them a time frame. I mean, what 
they're saying is we've got to protect the public from 
stray rifle fire, if that would occur, and -- 

DAVID: The, the public's not even out here, 

all right? 

JIM: Well, they're, they're out on that 

highway . 

DAVID: We're way out here. 

JIM: Yeah, but there, there's a lot of 

people on those highways. 

DAVID: Okay. 

JIM: Reporters. I'm telling you -- 

DAVID: So what is your time limit that 

you're going to come in here and bust -- 

JIM: We're not coming in. We are not coming 

in. We are not coming in. 

DAVID: Well, if you keep getting closer, 

we're going to retaliate. And then you're going to 
have to come in, and that's just the way it is, Jim. 

I'm sorry. 

JIM: Well, David -- 

DAVID: You're going to keep moving your 

erratic finger closer and closer to our rear ends, and 
then finally we're going to turn arovmd and we're going 
to slug you. 


JIM: Yeah. 



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DAVID: I mean, I don't want that to happen. 

JIM: Yeah. 

DAVID: You know, I mean, this is a great 

nation, but, like I said, it's not bigger than my God. 

^JIM: Yeah. 

DAVID: Now, the whole meanings of what I'm 

trying to tell you in the seals is I'm the little guy 
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JIM: Um-hum. 

DAVID: Okay, you tried to push me. 

JIM: I'm not pushing you. 

DAVID: No, let me, let me say your -- I just 

saw Robert Gonzalez on the TV, you know. They tried to 
push me. And you did. But, remember, I tried to tell 
you about God who judges all nations. 

JIM; Um-hum. 

DAVID: I'm the little guy, you're the big 

guy. 

JIM: No, I'm not the big guy. 

DAVID: You know, the Goliath, I'm the David. 

Remember that. Remember, David took five smooth 
stones. And we're in the fifth seal now, okay? 

JIM: Yeah. 

DAVID: And Goliath does get his head sunken 

in with a rock. Think about that. 

JIM: Well, listen, David, I, I don't want 



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you to put more into this than is happening. 

DAVID: Hey -- 

JIM: It'S not. 

DAVID: -- the same, the same, all right? 

JIM: Okay. 

DAVID: You tell these guys to back off. 

We're the ones that are edgy. Really we're not, but, 
like I say, if they want to keep playing around, then 
they'll find out what we've got, okay? 

JIM: Yeah. Listen, okay. I just want you 

to relax. Call me if you see them moving. 

DAVID: You call them and then you call me, 

okay? Do what you can, Jim. 

STEVE: Okay. Let me talk to Steve just a 

minute . 

DAVID: Okay, here. 

JIM; I want to e^qplain it to him. Steve, 

hello? 

STEVE ; Hello? 

JIM : Steve? 

STEVE: Yeah. 

JIM; Hey, this is Jim. 

STEVE: Okay, Jim. 

JIM: Listen, now, I've told David and I'm -- 

I want to tell you, too. 

STEVE; All right. 



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JIM; We're going to have a change in the 
perimeter. This is -- it's defensive, okay? Now, 
you're going to see these vehicles moving and you'll 
see where they're set up, okay? Just bear with me now. 

-STEVE: I'm listening. 

JIM: And once they go to their position arid 

stop, they're not coming any closer? 

STEVE: Pardon? I missed the last part. 

JIM: I, I said they're not coming any 

closer. Wherever you see them go and stop, okay? 

STEVE : They' re going to be on the perimeter 

of the property? 

JIM: They're going to -- yeah, they're going 

to set up a perimeter out there, okay? And, now, I 
told David, these are like big vehicles, three vehicles 
that will protect an agent from getting shot, okay? 

STEVE; And what would an agent be doing near 
here anyway? 

JIM; Well, we're, we're trying to get around 
so nobody goes in. You know all the trouble we had 
last night with those people in the bushes, you know. 

STEVE; No, I can't. (Talking to someone 

else.) 

JIM: Steve? 

STEVE ; Yes . 

JIM: You know all that stuff we had, people 



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in the bushes and you guys -- your men saw people and 
our men saw people. And, you know, that's one thing we 
can put an end to. When these things, these vehicles 
move in, it protects us and it protects you. And they 
don't have guns on them. 

STEVE: Jim, I mean, what you're saying, I 

mean, it would sound good to a kindergartner, you know 
that? 

JIM: No. Steve, trust me. We had the gunis 

taken off them. They're just so the agents don't get 
shot, that's all. You guys got some heavy stuff in 
there . 

STEVE : We do? 

JIM; Yeah. I mean, you know, assault rifles 
and, I mean, you know, that'd go right through a car. 

I mean, so -- 

STEVE: Just a moment. (Unidentified voices 

in background not discernible.) Jim, what part of the 
property? 

JIM; Well, I'm going to -- I have to check 
on that to find out, okay? What I want you to do is 
pass the word, tell everybody they're coming. When 
they stop, that's where they'll stay, okay? They're 
not going to move around. And then when you see them, 
you call me. But they're not coming in. 

STEVE; I don't like this, David. I don't 


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like it at all. 

JIM: It' 8, it's only three vehicles. 

STEVE: Well, what is the -- there, there is 

not a good reason, from our perspective, why you're 
doing eucTi a thing at this point of time. 

JIM: Well, it's for your safety -- 

STEVE: No, it's not. It's not at all. I 

see -- I don't see that. 

JIM: Well, there's already been too much 

bloodshed, Steve, and -- 

STEVE: And you want to cause more. 

JIM: No. 

STEVE: Is that the idea? 

JIM: No. 

STEVE: Well, then why are you bringing such 

things? 

JIM; No, no, we don't -- 

STEVE: You see what we're doing? We're 

moving on, aren't we? We keep on moving out, and now 
you want to bring something so close . And what , what 
kind of vehicles are you talking about? 

JIM: Well, we've got -- the reason we're 

doing it is we've got new personnel, we're changing 
shifts. We've got other agents - - 

STEVE; You don't, don't -- Jim, you don't 
need to tell me why you're doing it. I mean, it's 



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quite obvious why you're doing it. 

JIM: Well, no. You remember last night When 

you saw all those men moving? . 

STEVE: I never did. 

- JIM: Well, I know, but your gfuys did, okay? 

We're putting a stop to that. We're not going to haye 
anybody moving like these -- whoever was out there, 
snipers, whatever. We're not going to have that. 

STEVE: I ended up believing you, remember? 

You -- I took a little time each time and then we 
worked it out even then. 

JIM: Right. Remember today when you told me 

those men were at the fence? We're not going to have 
that -- 

(End of Tape #8.) 


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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY 
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS 


TAPE #9 
3/1/93 



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(start tape #9) 


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STEVE: Where did they get the command to do 

that, the order to do that? 

JIM: Well, I don't know. You know, so -- 

there are so many officers. 

STEVE: I thought all of you were together on 

this? 

JIM: Yeah, we are. But there's a lot of 

people here and, you know, they moved up closer than 
they should have, so we pulled them back. But these -- 
STEVE: Okay, why don't you, why don't you -- 

this? We're working along with you on this. 

JIM; Well, I know, but I don't -- we don't 
want people around there on foot. We don't -- 

STEVE: The same goes, we don't want you 

there. Do you want us to set some people up on the 
edge so your people or ours don't go any -- it's the 
same thing. 

JIM: Yeah. Well, you -- 

STEVE; Do you understand, Jim? 

JIM: Steve, I do. But, look, there's an 

advantage here for you, okay? That is -- 

STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PARTY: What's the 

advantage for us to have three of the heavy vehicles 
sitting right on the edge of the property? He's trying 
to say it's to our advantage, because that way we won't 



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have people that we see moving around and they won't 
either. 



JIM: 

Hey, Steve, 




STEVE 

: Jim, 

you 

know, David's saying 

get 

real . 







JIM: 

You'll, 

r you'll be able to see these 

things . 

STEVE: 

Yeah, 

we 

could see a chopper. 

We 


could see what you pulled in the front. I don't care 
where it is, when it's that close -- What kind of 
vehicles are you talking about? 


JIM; Well, they're -- 

STEVE: Some kind of armored vehicles? 

JIM: Yeah. It's what they call an APC. 

STEVE; APC, total armored vehicle. 

JIM; You can't shoot a bullet through it. 
STEVE; I Jcnow you can't. 

JIM; Yeah. That's, that's, that's why we 
want to put it there. 

STEVE: I'm sure, so that you can shoot at ua 

and - - 

JIM; No. 

STEVE: — SO forth. 

JIM; There's no guns on them. We took the 
gxuis off. You can look at them. There's no -- 

STEVE; How many guys are going to be in each 



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have their mothers. And I want you, and I want you to 
do is talk to David. Well, we've got to get these two 
guys out right now, these two kids, because the car's 
waiting. 

' SITA: Okay. 

JIM: But I want you to think about it and I 

want you to talk to Steve and David about some of the 
mothers coming, and also, you know, some of the kids 
and -- I don't want to rush 

SITA : I want all the kids out. 

I JIM: I, I'm just concerned that David's 

wound and infections and -- I'm just worried about him, 
okay? And I think he wants to keep going a little 
longer than I do because I'm worried about his 
condition. I can get you out of there. 

SITA: No. 

JIM; All right. I'll tell you what, you go 
ahead and take those kids now. 

SITA; Okay. 

JIM: Okay, Sita. 

SITA: Okay, here's Steve. 

JIM: All right. 

STEVE: Okay, Jim. 

JIM: All right. She, she's doing a good 

job. 

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right then. 


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SITA: Yeah, she loves those kids, man, I can 

tell. She needs to be with her kids, though. 

STEVE; She Jcnows. She's just concerned 
about some of these others, too. She wants to 
encourage them, that's why, you know, she's talking to 
some of these other -- 

JIM: Well, I feel like, I feel like Sita 

trusts me, though. 

STEVE: Well, she does. 

JIM: And -- 

SITA: You know, she has said that right 

along. She definitely likes you. 

JIM: Yeah. Well, she's been real good. I 

don't know how we would have done it without her or 
you. I mean, you guys have been great. It's just hard 
to work out these things. 

STEVE; You know, we've never been in 
anything like this. 

JIM; But, listen, we have gotten -- This 
is -- the way you're going and the way we're working 
together, we're going to, we're going to resolve it. 

STEVE; Well, you know, we're trying to 
keeping on plugging on. You know, it gets so hard 
because people are getting emotional in here and 
they're, they're scared, you know. A lot of them are 



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terrified. 

JIM: Yeah. Well, I can understand that. 

And I think you, you know, you may come to a point when 
you all get together with David and you say David, you 
know, we want to go out and we want to go out as a 
group. We are a group. We are -- 

STEVE: Some of them here, that's what 

they're talking about wanting to do. 

JIM: Yeah. I mean, we're one people, we 

want to stay together and we want to all come out, you 
know. You'll be saving his life, man, I'm telling you 
you'll be saving his life. I mean, I, I know you love 
him more than anything, between you and me. Between 
you and me, you love the guy. Come on. 

STEVE: Well, you know, I, I like everybody, 

I do. You know, I -- 

JIM: Yeah, but you love that guy. 

STEVE: Well, I appreciate him. I have a 

great, you know, I do, I do love the guy a lot. 

JIM: I mean, you love that guy. Come on. 

It's not just like a, a friend. I mean, you've got a 
deep love for this guy. 

STEVE: Oh, you know, I have, though, that 

for a lot of people, I really do. You know, I mean, 
he, he's shown me a lot and shared a lot and, you know, 

I haven't -- I've seen what he's been saying and, you 



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know, I've had to wrestle with it myself and, you know, 
it's an up and down thing for sure . But - - 

JIM; Well -- 

STEVE: Yeah, let's keep on working on this. 

I mean, there's a greater satisfaction to accomplishing 
something — 

JIM: Steve -- 

STEVE: Yeah? 

JIM: -- I want to give you something to, to 

think about. 

STEVE: All right. 

JIM: Okay? I don't know if I can do this, 

but what I'm going to do is I'm going to go back there 
j and talk to some commanders. 

STEVE: Okay. 

JIM; These guys are in here, man, they've 
got scrambled eggs on their hats and generals' stars, 
you know. 

STEVE : Right . 

JIM; And I want to tell them about our 
conversations , 

STEVE: Okay. 

JIM: And I'm going to see if, just a 

possibility now -- 

STEVE : Okay . 

JIM: Okay, the possibility now, we 



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53 

understand? 

STEVE: Okay. 

JIM: 'Cause I don't want you to get mad if, 

if I can't work it out. That if I was able to get I 
mean a major, major broadcast of your word out -- 
STEVE : Um-hum . 

JIM: I'm talking about -- I'm not talking 

about the radio station in Dallas. I'm talking about 
some major thing. 

STEVE : Okay . 

JIM: Would you all come out? I mean, would 

you all -- 

STEVE: Can I, can I put it to David, because 

what he's been talking about? 

JIM: Okay. I mean -- 

STEVE: I mean, even tonight -- What is it, 

it's Monday and what about -- Is it a possibility maybe 
of Ted Koppel or something? 

JIM: I mean something, something that would 

be dynamic. 

STEVE: Yeah. 

JIM: I mean, you know, I'm not -- You'd have 

to let us work out the, the details, but -- 
STEVE: Right. 

JIM: --it's just a possibility that -- 

Don't put a lot of things on me I can't deliver. 



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STEVE; Yeah, I understand. 

JIM; You know, Ted Koppel and all these news 
stars, you know. You, you leave it to me to get 
something that will be acceptable to you, if we can 
work it out. 

STEVE: uh-huh. Well -- 

JIM: You know, maybe something that's more, 

you know, Ted Koppel, you know, I mean, who's watching 
that? I mean, I need to watch -- to get it to the 
people who are religious. 

STEVE; Well, let me mention it to him, at 
least, here. 

JIM: Yes. Okay, let's see, did -- Steve? 

STEVE TO KORESH; He's not promising or 
anything, he doesn't know if he can even do it. If 
it's possible if he could put you in touch with the, 
the best news coverage possible -- I mentioned like the 
Ted Koppel --he says would you as a group come out 
together and -- 

MR. KORESH: Can't do that. 

STEVE: Well, he's saying he can't do that 

because he wants them to have the choice, you know, 
every one of them, and he don't --He wants them to be 
able to I guess move on their own without -- Some of 
them, you know, they're scared and all the rest. 

JIM: Yeah. Well, look, maybe you can talk 



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to hitn, you know. 

STEVE: Yeah. 

JIM: I think it would be something real 

positive and, you know, real positive for everybody 
concerned. And we'd get you out safely, we'd get to 
treat his woxmds. 

STEVE: Well, he was wondering there couldn't 

be at least a line opened up back to the radio or 
something. 

JIM: Well, you know, we can work on that. 

STEVE: Could you? While we're moving with 

the kids, could you do that? 

JIM: Well, I'll, I'll go check on it. I'll 

try to -- 

STEVE: I mean, you know, Alex, you know, you 

can tell the guy's not a, a guy that's given to 
positiveness over religious things anyway. So that's 
fine, you know, if he wants to ask his tough questions 
or whatever . 

JIM; Steve. 

STEVE; Yeah? 

JIM: The commanders are -- they're asking me 

where's the kids. Have they left? 

STEVE: I don't -- Just a minute, let me find 

out, because she's not here any longer. Have the kids 
left? 



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JIM: Send them up to the water tower now. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Have the kids 

STEVE: Okay. Yeah, they -- 

(End of Tape #9.) 



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1 

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY 
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS 


TAPE #10A 
3/1/93 


( 



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(small child (ren) crying in background of most of tape) 

STEVE: Really, it is. 

JIM: It is. It's going good and it's going 

to go good. 

- STEVE: It feels like being on a -- up and 

down on waves here, but -- 

JIM: Yeah, I know. 

STEVE: Should I call you back then or are 

you going to call me. back or -- 

JIM: Tell you what I want to do is just 

get -- 

STEVE : Pardon? 

JIM: I want to just get the kids -- I want 

to just tell you we got them safe. 

STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PARTY; He's going to 
work on that. He said he's going to work on getting a 
line for you there, you know, with the radio station or 
whatever . 

JIM: Steve? 

STEVE: You 3cnow there is one thing. A 

couple of these guys that haven't made up their mind, 
they're, they're saying there are guys in camouflage 
that they, that they see them right now. They've got 
like brush and stuff stuck in their helmets. They're 
in camouflage, they're, they're positively on the 
property. You know, we, we -- You know, you said about 



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JIM : Okay . 

STEVE: -- those kind of vehicles being 

there? 

- JIM: Yeah. 

STEVE: Well, that -- Okay, you, you said it, 

we were going along and, you know, the, the -- we're 
moving with the kids. But who are they? I mean, what 
are they doing there? You know, I really thought you 
had control over these vehicles. 

JIM: You ]cnow, there's a lot of perimeter 

movement, I understand that. 

STEVE: I mean that's the kind of thing that 

makes some of these people nervous. They don't want to 
be, you know, they're wondering what's going on and 
they're afraid to move. A lot of them are sitting here 
kind of like almost frozen. 

JIM: Yeah, I know, but nobody's coming in. 

You have my word. I know there's perimeter -- 

STEVE: Yeah. 

JIM: -- people, Steve. I, I know there is. 

STEVE: What are they doing on the property 

and all that? 

JIM; Yeah, I'm not making a secret of that. 
But I guess we’ve got to, you know, we've got to kind 
of, like I said earlier, you know, get more toward the 





brass tacks, and that is -- 

STEVE: Well, that's what we want to do, but, 

you Jcnow, I mean, you did tell us, you know, that they 
wouldn't be on the property. And you mentioned where 
the others would be and, and you told the truth. 

JIM: Yeah. 

STEVE: So I, I'm just wondering why those, 

those guys are where they're at there. 

JIM: Yeah, I'm going to have to get back 

with those commanders. 

STEVE : Can you? 

JIM: Yeah, I will. I'm going to have to go 

back -- 

STEVE: I, I really believe it'll make it 

easier if you don't -- if there's no one like that. 
There's going to be people here that are going to be 
feeling much more safe and, and -- I mean, 'cause, you 
know, it's night, they don't know what's going on, they 
don't know where these people might end up being. 
They're, they're scared. 

JIM : I know . Look , here ' s what - - 

STEVE: Okay. 

JIM; Here's what we're going to have to do. 

STEVE; All right. 

JIM: As soon as we get these kids hooked up, 

I'm going to go back and talk to these commanders -- 



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STEVE; All right. Okay. 

JIM; -- about that perimeter motion, okay? 

STEVE ; Right . 

JIM: And, and some of these issues we've 

discussed. 

STEVE: Right, okay. 

JIM: I've got to round them up. There's a 

bunch of them in here. 

STEVE: Okay. 

JIM: And -- 

STEVE: And call me back then? 

JIM: No, because I want to hook these kids 

up, okay? And, and, and, and David said that he wanted 
to keep the kids coming out. 

STEVE : Right . 

JIM: And you've got these other two, Chrissy 

and -- You've got Brian and Jake are coming out and 
you've got Chrissy and Scott. 

STEVE : Yeah . 

JIM: So what, what I want you to do, I've 

got Henry here, okay? 

STEVE; Okay. 

JIM: He's been with me all through this. 

STEVE: All right. 

JIM: Okay? Helping me, setting up the car, 

doing everything, okay? 



6 


1 STEVE: Yeah. 

2 JIM: He's personal with me. I know the guy, 

3 he's golden, okay? We've worked every -- Everything 

4 we've worked out stands. 

5 ^ STEVE: Okay. 

6 JIM: Okay, he's not going to make any 

7 changes to the, you know, he's going to try to work 

8 with you. He knows all the agreements, he sat and went 

9 through everything. 


10 


STEVE 

: Okay. 



11 


JIM: 

Okay? 



12 


STEVE 

: Yeah. 



13 


JIM: 

And he. 

he really is a good 

fellow. 

14 

okay? And I want you to just talk with him 

on the 

15 

mechanics 

of getting Chrissy and Scott out, 

okay? And 

16 

then, and 

then. 

you know, just to continue with it. 

17 

okay? 





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STEVE; 

Yeah. 



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JIM: 

While I 

go try to work on these 

20 

commanders . As 

long as 

we're doing this, I 

mean, it's 

21 

positive. 





22 


STEVE: 

Okay. 



23 


JIM: 

Okay? 



24 


STEVE: 

Is it 

okay if I get off the phone 

25 

here and talk with them 

then? 



JIM: Okay, wait. There's a vehicle 



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STEVE: Okay. 

JIM; You know 

STEVE : I tell you, I'm so weak I'm standing 

here and -- 

JIM: Just hang with me one second, Steve. 

STEVE: Okay. 

JIM: Listen -- 

STEVE: I'm tired. 

JIM: -- what I want you -- After, after you 

talk to Henry a while, and he'll give you a break, but, 
you 3cnow, David can convince everyone to come out if he 
has a mind to. 

STEVE: Well, you know, that's what he's been 

saying to them. He again said to these people, he said 
look, you know, he's already told them. And like right 
now he's laying back because he's, he is, you know, I'm 
telling you he can hardly talk. 

JIM: Yeah. 

STEVE; He mustered up what he could to talk 
with you, but he is tired. 

JIM: Well, you, you've got to work with him, 

you've got to -- 

STEVE: Well, that's what I need to do now. 

That's what I wanted to do. 

JIM: Okay. Let me just tell you we've got 



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the kids -- 

STEVE : Okay . 

JIM: -- and then you can work out with Henry 

just a time to, you know, to keep bringing people out 
and, you -know, the kids anyway. Trust me, Steve, Hanry 
won't let you down now. I wouldn't give you anybody 
that you couldn't trust. 

STEVE: Right. 

JIM: I mean, the guy's first-rate, okay? 

STEVE: Okay. 

JIM: Everything he says right down the line, 

okay? Okay, the cars are there. 

STEVE : Okay . 

JIM: The commanders are telling me the cars 

are there. You okay? 

STEVE: Yeah. Oh, I'm getting tired. There * 

there, you know, there's people all over the place herei 
and -- 

JIM: You know -- Okay, the kids are out? 

You know, you guys talk about it. Nobody's coming in 
there . 

STEVE: Okay. 

JIM: You've got my word, it's solid, it's 

1,000 percent absolute, okay? 

STEVE; Okay. 

JIM: I know, I know that everybody's 



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skittish, but, you know, we've just got to work on the 
kids and we've got to let -- What are they saying on 
the radio, 10 kids? 

STEVE: Yeah. Wait. (Indiscernible voice in 

background) David, he believes that you're fixing to 
hit us tonight, he says. 

JIM: No, we are not fixing to hit you. That 

is not true. 

STEVE: I mean, here's, here's this crazy 

radio again, you know. I mean, where, where are they 
getting that information? 

JIM: You know, that is baloney. It's 

rubbish. 

STEVE: The news media was told to get out 6f 

the way and to back way off, much farther back than 
what they are even now. Why is that? 

JIM; Nobody's coming in there. A thousand 
percent absolute guarantee. I'm promising you, it's 
true, okay? Do we got those kids? Okay. Steve? 

STEVE; Yeah. 

JIM: Let me check here. Hold on a second. 

STEVE: These guys are being told to move 

back a half-mile more even for safety. Safety of what? 

JIM; Okay. I'm sorry, for what? 

STEVE: We're listening -- Right now on the 

news all the press is, is being told to move back a 



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half-mile more for their own safety. What are they 
talking about? 

JIM: Yeah. Oh, well, what they're doing is 

they don't want them in any of the -- They've been 
crawling- down our backs, all those reporters. Crawling 
down our backs. 

STEVE: Well, their comments are, you know, 

for safety, that they don't get hurt and so forth, I 
mean, wow. 

JIM: Oh, yeah, but that's not -- That's 

normal. We don't want them there. I mean, they've 
raced in real fast early and, you know, now we're just 
trying to get them back and clear the road. It's 
nothing, trust me. And it means nothing. I'd like 
to -- Tell you what, I'd like to move them back to 
Arkansas, they're such a pain in the neck. 

STEVE : I suppose . 

JIM: And the policemen are just glad, you 

know, you go out and the lieutenant says get rid of all 
the reporters. What do yon think the policeman does? 
Tries to kick their butt back a mile, so don't -- it's 
no big thing. Okay, look -- 

STEVE: Yeah. 

JIM: -- I've got -- Hold on. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: We've got the 

kids. They're on their way back. We have another car 



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in to pick up two more. 

JIM: Okay, we've got the kids. 

STEVE: Okay. 

JIM: They're safe. 

STEVE: Okay. 

JIM: They're on the way back here. 

STEVE: Can you -- Can I get off the phone 

and then have them call again? And we ' re working on 
the other two. 

JIM : All right . 

STEVE: I'm going to go talk -- try to talk 

to these mothers. 

JIM: Okay. 

STEVE: And try to get them going then right 

away. 'Cause right now they're trying to decide. If t 
could encourage them somehow. 

Hello, Jim? 

JIM: Hold on, hold on a minute. 

STEVE: Okay. 

JIM: Hold on. They're, they're going to 

tell me something from the car. 

STEVE; All right. 

[gap] 

JIM: Okay, I'm sorry. Okay, I'll tell you 

what , let ' s - - 


STEVE: Okay. 



12 



JIM; -- can we take, take a break? 

STEVE: Oh, thanks. 

JIM: Can you -- 

STEVE: I'm going to actually kind of lay 

down here -- 

JIM: Okay. 

STEVE; — in just a minute. 

JIM; Take a break. Can you call me here? 
STEVE: Yeah. Well, so far, I haven't been 

able to. I tried to call you about 10 minutes ago and 
I'm still not able to get out. 

JIM: Okay. 

STEVE: What do you think? Is it -> Do you 

think -- 

JIM; All right, hold on, let me check on it. 
STEVE: All right. 

JIM; Okay. 

STEVE; When, when should I call you? 

JIM: Have you got that set up? (Talking to 

someone else.) Okay, listen, Steve -- 
STEVE: Yeah. 

JIM; -- you pick up the phone -- 
STEVE: Right. 

JIM; -- and I'm going to have the technician 
set it to ring my number. 

STEVE; Okay. You mean like right now, just 



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to try it? 

JIM: You want to try it right now? 

STEVE: If you want. 

JIM: Yeah. 

- STEVE: I mean, would that be the thing or -- 

JIM; Yeah. Let's hang up, hang up. 

STEVE; Okay. 

JIM; Just leave it hang up for 15 seconds. 
STEVE: All right. 

JIM; And then pick it up and see if you get 


STEVE; Okay, I'll try. 

***** 

STEVE; Hello? 

HENRY: Steve? 

STEVE: Yeah. 

HENRY; This is Henry. 

STEVE; Henry? 

HENRY; Yeah. 

STEVE: Oh, okay. Henry, it's not working. 

HENRY: Did you dial? 

STEVE: Yeah, I did. 

HENRY: Don't dial. Just pick it up and -- 

STEVE; Oh, I see. 

HENRY; — just hold it. 

STEVE; Just -- Okay. 



14 


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1 HENRY 

: You don't have 

to dial at all, 

just 

2 

pick it up and just hold it. 



3 

STEVE 

; I see. Okay, 

let me try to -- 

Can I 

4 

try it again? 




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_ HENRY; 

Sure . 



6 

STEVE; 

Okay, thanks . 

I'll call you back. 

7 


* * * * * 



8 

STEVE 

Hello? 



9 

HENRY 

Hello, Steve? 



10 

STEVE 

Yes. 



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HENRY 

This is Henry. 



12 

STEVE 

Henry, how are 

you doing? 


13 

HENRY 

Good. How are 

you doing? 


14 

STEVE 

Well, I tried to call you back 

but I 

15 

guess it didn't 

work. 



16 

HENRY: 

Okay. We have 

the kids here, but 


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just before we get to the kids, we have the APC's that 
are going to be moving in. 

STEVE: The, the which? 

HENRY: The carriers that are moving into the 

general perimeter of the area. Remember, we talked 
about that earlier? 

STEVE: Aren't there already three here or 

something? 

HENRY; Well, those, those are the ones that 
we talked about, but they have never been -- they have 



15 


1 never moved into position- They're going to be moving 

2 into position now. I want to let you know that so 

3 that -- 

4 STEVE: Okay. 

5 - HENRY: Okay? 

6 STEVE: Yeah. They're moving three -- What 

7 are they called? 


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HENRY: 

ARC'S. 


STEVE: 

--ARC'S into position now that they 

had mentioned, which they hadn't done yet.. ■ (Talking to 

someone 

else. ) 



HENRY: 

But they have no -- Yeah, they don't 

have the 

, they don't have the capability to shoot. 


STEVE: 

Okay, 


HENRY: 

Okay? 


STEVE: 

Okay. 


HENRY: 

The, the cannon and the muzzles were 

removed. 

so everything should be fine. 


STEVE: 

Okay. (Unidentified voice in 

background not discernible.) 


HENRY; 

Okay, and we have the kids -- 


STEVE; 

It's not Jim. Henry, what happened 

to Jim then? 



HENRY; 

He is working on -- I'm not sure 

exactly what he's 

1 working on. He's working with the. 

with the 

-- some 

of our brass on working out some of 



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the details. What we'd like to try to do is we'd like 
to try to continue bringing kids out and any other 
people that are ready to come out . 

STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PARTY; Okay. So 
they'd like to continue bringing the kids out and any 
others that want to come out. He's talking to the 
brass, I don't know about what. (Unidentified voice in 
backgrovind not discernible.) 

STEVE: He, wants Jim to give him a call as 

soon as the van is here, I guess. 

HENRY: Okay. Is Jake -- I have Jake here, 

j or Jacob. 

STEVE; Okay. 

HENRY: Who would Jacob be talking to? 

STEVE: Who would Jake be talking to? He has 

Jake there, of course, and little Brian. (Unidentified 
female voice in background not discernible.) 

[gap] 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Jake? 

HENRY; This is Henry. Who is this? 
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Can I have 

Jake, please? 

HENRY; Yes, you certainly may. Hold on just 

a second. 

JAKE : Hi . 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Hi. I love 



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you. I love you. Tell Brian, okay? Tell Brian I love 
him, okay? I've got to go. Put the other guy back on 
the phone. I love you. Tell me, tell me you love me. 
JAKE : Bye . 

- UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Bye. 

HENRY: Hello? 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Put the guy 

back on the phone. 

HENRY: Huh? 

I UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay. 

HENRY: Hello? 

Igap] 

HENRY: Hello? 

[gap] 

HENRY: Hello? 

STEVE: Henry? | 

HENRY: Yes. | 

STEVE; So is Jim getting back on thfe phone 

then or -- 

HENRY: Well, not just now. He's, you know, 

he's talking to, to some of our -- 


STEVE: Well, can you have him call back as 

soon as he's ready then, because the next two -j- 

HENRY: We're ready now. If you're ready to, 

to send two other people now. I'll, i'll work tiose 
arrangements right now. 



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1 STEVE: Well, that's what David is hoping, 

2 that, you know, to try -- 

3 HENRY: Okay, that's fine. We'll work it 

4 right now . 

5 ' STEVE: All right. 

6 HENRY: Are you, are you ready to send them 

7 right now? 


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STEVE: Well, he mentioned -- What, did you 

want to talk to Jim about the next two that you have 
or -- Yeah, he says him and Jim's got the deal going 
and he wants to keep on talking with Jim, I guess. 

HENRY: Well, I'd like to -- Can I talk to 

him for just a second? 

STEVE: Okay. He wants to talk to you. 

MR. KORESH: Hello? 

HENRY: How are you doing? 

MR. KORESH: Kind of weak. How are you boys 

doing. 

HENRY: How do you feel now? 

MR. KORESH: How do I feel now? 

HENRY: Dm-hum. 

MR. KORESH: Just a little pain. 

HENRY; Okay. What we'd like to do, David, 
is we'd like to continue working as we were before. 
We'd like to continue bringing out additional children, 
as best as we can, with the same agreement that wte had 



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before. And we'd like to work, if possible, you know, 
everybody has a concern here about you. We feel that, 
you know, that you're not really taking care of 
yourself. We don't want anything to happen to you. 

We'd like for you to consider coming out yourself. 

We want everybody to come out, we want 
everybody to come out of this alive. We don't want you 
to give up, and we feel that you are. That's a great 
concern to, to all of us. 

MR. KORESH: Well, like I was telling Jim, 

you know, I told Jim to, to look into that Bible. I 
told him to look into Revelation 4 and 5. I told him 
to look into those seals. Now, if you look at the, the 
fifth seal, if you look at the sixth seal, if you look 
into Isaiah 13, if you look in Joel 2, if you look into 
the back of Nahum, what's fixing to happen has already 
been foretold. I teach seven seals. 

Now, whatever that means, you know, I'd like 
to talk with you guys in full. I'd like you to grab a 
Bible, sit down and follow me word by word, see what 
the ancients have foresaw. And that way we'd have a 
better understanding. But I realize that, you know, 
most of you are not ready for that. You've got your 
own way of doing things. 

HENRY ; Well , one of the concerns that we 
have, you know, that I feel that you may have is you 



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mentioned earlier that you felt that people were 

® cult leader, okay? If you give up, that 
may in fact be the impression that everybody has, 
whereas if you continue to fight in terms of trying to 
save your life and continue to lead your people, that's 
not the impression that will be created. 

MR. KORESH: Look -- 

HENRY; You've been a family person, okay? 

And your family -- 

MR. KORESH: Oh, I'm definitely a family 

person . 

I HENRY: And your family needs you. And 

everybody wants to see you come out of this alive. 

MR. KORESH: Look, Henry 

HENRY : Everybody needs you. These people 

need you, the kids need you. 

MR. KORESH: You're not going to listen to 

me , are you? 

HENRY: I will listen to you. 

MR. KORESH: Okay, you're listening no^? 

HENRY: Yes, I am. 

MR. KORESH: Okay. The event that you're now 

fixing to witness is you're fixing to see a government, 
a government that's been blessed -- See, there was an 
ancient empire called Babylon. 


HENRY; Um-hum. 



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MR. KORESH: Land of the Chaldeans. And 

before Babylon ruled the then-knovm world, God had a 
people that he brought out of Egypt and God had given 
them laws and statutes and God had stated unto Israel, 
which was' a cult because they had one leader, Moses, 
and one right-hand man, Aaron, and God says and 
promised that if they will keep his laws he'll make 
them the head of all nations. If they break his laws, 
he'll scatter them amongst the nations and the nations 
of the heathens will rule over them. 

So for many, many hundreds of years God 
forebores his people. But, finally, the days came when 
Israel became worse than the heathens. So God arose 
prophets such as Isaiah, Hosea, Obadiah, Malachi, 
Zephaniah, Habakkuk, you know, these prophets, Nahum. 
And God foretold in these prophets how that they'd be 
scattered amongst the nations. In the Book of Daniel, 
Daniel was shown, while under the Chaldean captivity, 
he was shown that the nations of the earth that shall 
rule over God's people will be symbolized as one great 
image, and the image will be head of gold, arms of 
silver, belly of brass, legs of iron, feet part of iron 
and part of clay. 

And Daniel says to the king, Nebuchadnezzar, 
the highest ruling position of the land in that day, 
Daniel says thou oh. King, of this head of gold, and 



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after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to 
thee, and yet a third kingdom of brass. And then a 
fourth kingdom, dreadful and terrible, it shall cometh 
the whole world. 

- HENRY: Um-hum. 

MR. KORESH: And then there shall be a 

kingdom that shall be at the ten toes, partly strong 
and partly broken. So when Rome split up under the 
nomadic kingdoms, it, fell into many different kingdoms. 

HENRY; Um-hum. 

MR. KORESH: We know it as Europe. Now, 

Daniel goes on to explain that while Europe is still in 
existence, he goes on to say (indiscernible) behold a 
stone, came and emote the image in the feet and they 
had gold and silver amd braes and iron, was all made as 
the chaff of the summer threshing floors. Well, this 
stone is the subject of which the Book of Revelation 
talks about. It talks about that which must be 
hereafter, that God will one day in the future, in the 
end of the world, shall come and sit on his throne in 
heaven, and there'll be one question asked in heayen. 

The question is who is worthy to open this 
book? The book is in the right hand of God. And to 
lose these seven seals thereof, scripture clearly 
teaches Christendom, that no man in heaven nor on earth 
neither \inder earth was able to open and he lookedi 



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thereon . 

HENRY: Um-hum. 

MR. KORESH: But the lamb, the lamb is 

symbolized as a lamb with seven eyes and seven horns. 
You know, God creates things in seven days, doesn't he? 

HENRY : Um-hum . 

MR. KORESH: Okay. There's only one many who 

knows what that book teaches. But for the sake of 
humanity, the acid test revolving around the subjects 
in this book revolve around Christ in heaven, opening 
the seals, and what is witnessed is a man on a white 
horse, a man on a red horse, black and pale. Dead 
souls under the altar described to God because of their 
blood that's been shed, and then the time when the sun 
and moon and stars will be darkened, the heavens will 
part as a scroll and the great man, mighty men, free 
men, bonded men shall cry to the rocks and mountains to 
fall on them and hide them from the face of him that 
sits on the throne and from the wrath of the lamb* but 
the great David's wrath has come. 

HENRY : Um- hum . 

MR. KORESH: So these subjects are mysteiries, 

'cause nobody really has a real thorough opinion to 
really know the real meanings of these things. But in 
Chapter 10, after the student of scripture is read and 
become familiar with the symbols, in Chapter 10, after 


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talking about an army of 200 million that overthrow the 
world, it talks about a mighty angel coming down from 
heaven. And he has in his hand a little book and it's 
opened and seven thunders are uttered, seven thunders. 
And John was told that when there's time no longer this 
mystery of God, this revelation of Jesus Christ, the 
seven seals will be finished, as God has declared to 
his servants the prophets. 

HENRY: Um-hum. 

MR. KORESH: So in this 22nd chapter, after a 

person takes the time to read these things, it's very 
clear, the statement, Christ says I Jesus have sent my 
angel to testify to these things in the churches. l am 
the root and the offspring of David. Now, Ancient 
David was a great king, wasn't he? 

HENRY: Um-hum. 

MR. KORESH: He's the one that took his 

little sling stone and slew the great giant Goliath. 

HENRY: Right. 

MR. KORESH: Yeah, okay. So what happened 

was he says behold, I come quickly. My reward is with 
me, to give it to every man according as his work shall 
be. 

HENRY: Um-hum. 

MR. KORESH: Now, when Christ comes, the 

question is going to be what did the father give him 



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that no other man in heaven was worthy to receive? No 
man was worthy. A book, right? 

HENRY ; Um-hum . 

MR. KORESH: God gave him a book, a 

revelation of himself that the father claims he's the 
author of this book. And when the lamb comes, he's 
going to bring this book and mankind is supposed to 
find out that it is the Bible, the Bible which the 
prophets of God having spoken by the spirit that God 
gave them, having volumed a testament in regards to 
those events that must be fulfilled in the latter days. 
Now, in Revelation 13, John witnesses in regards to the 
seventh seal, John sees a beast. 

This beast has a head like a lion, a body 
like a leopard, feet of a bear. In Daniel 7, Daniel 
foretold that the empires of Babylon -•> Persia, Greece 
and Rome would be symbolized, Babylon as a lion, -- 
Persia as a bear, Greece as a leopard. And the fourth 
beast, he said, would devour all the three beasts 
before it and conquer the world. Now, that was Rome. 
Daniel also says in the days of this kingdom they will 
kill the prince of the covenant. They could change 
God's times and God's laws and place abomination to 
make desolate false religion. We know the only tSnie 
religion is the religion of God. 


HENRY; Um-hum. 



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MR. KORESH: Now, Christ died during the 

times of Rome and on the cross. Very clearly, it's 
written in the gospel records. He said father, forgive 
them for they know not what they do. 

HENRY: Um-hum. 

MR. KORESH: And then he said into thy hand I 

commit my spirit. And the hand of God has a book, the 
word. By the word of God, God made heaven and earth. 
And by hie word, there was prophets. The events that 
you're now witnessing are taking place. Now, what is 
taking place? Well, in the Book of Micah, it says in 
that day they shall gather together and they shall say 
let thine be defiled that they know not the thoughts of 
the Lord, neither do they understand his counsel . 

All of the prophets through the Book of 
Nahum, it talks about Messiah, it talks about, well, 
for instance, to make it real simple, Christ says he 
has the key of David in revelation. So in the Book of 
the Psalms, for instance Psalms 2, David sees a Vision 
of the future, of a confrontation between man and man's 
law -- 

HENRY ; Um-hum . 

MR. KORESH: — and God and God's law. 

HENRY: Um-hum. 

MR. KORESH: Now, Revelation 13 tells \js that 

there's a lamb-like beast that'll rise up, having two 



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horns, and it'll speak as a dragon. Now, we've got to 
identify what great empire arose up after Europe that's 
a great empire that's lamb-like or Christian, but yet 
doesn't really tell the truth. Well, the only great 
empire we've known is the United States of America. 

Now, back to Psalms 2, the psalm says why do the 
heathen rage? You know, the heathen don't know God. 

HENRY: Dm- hum. 

MR. KORESH: They don't know his word. 

HENRY: Um-hum. 

MR. KORESH: And they get angry. 

HENRY: Um-hum. 

MR. KORESH: It says, and the people imagine 

vain things, for the leaders of the earth and the 
rulers take counsel together against the Lord -- 

HENRY: Um-hum. 

MR. KORESH: -- and against his anointed. 

HENRY: Um-hum. 

MR. KORESH: That's Christ, you see? 

HENRY : Um-hum . 

MR. KORESH: Saying let us break hie bands 

asunder. Now, what are the seven bands that Christ 
promises to bring when he comes again? The seven 
seals, right? 

HENRY: Um-hum. 

MR. KORESH: But Zachariah and the other 



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prophets say that the world will not regard these 
messages of mercy. They have no interest in being 
instructed by anyone but themselves. Now, they say let 
us break his bands asunder, let us cast his cords away 
from us.- But scripture says, which is taking place 
right now, it says that he that sits in the heavens -- 
That's the father, you see? 

HENRY: Um-hum. 

MR. KORESH: -- shall laugh, for the Lord 

shall have them, the heathen, in confusion. See, the 
heathen don't know what they're doing. And this time 
they can't be forgiven because this time they willfully 
reject the subject which so plainly has been laid in 
the Book of Revelation, a subject which everyone is to 
be very familiarized with for the latter days. And 
yet, they're to understand by earnest study that these 
things will remain a mystery until Christ comes again. 

HENRY: Um-hum. 

MR. KORESH: To reveal these mysteries. 

HENRY: Um-hum. 

MR. KORESH: So the heathen and their tactics 

in dealing with a person based upon rumors and based 
upon their laws, they fail to understand that God also 
has a law and God also has a kingdom and God also has a 
key. So what takes place, it says, then shall the Lord 
speak unto them in hie wrath. That's what happens 



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during the sixth seal. 

HENRY: Uro-hum. 

MR. KORESH: The sun and moon and stars is 

darkened, the heaven departs as a scroll, and the great 
men of the earth cry to the rocks and mountains to hide 
them from the face of the reality that they would not 
know aforetime what God said will be. So they end up 
fulfilling prophecy, not knowing what side they're 
doing. But to the wise, when God speaks in his wrath, 
they already know of the events. And it says yet have 
I set my king up on my holy hill of Zion. 

So irrespective of what attitude the heathen 
I •’^sy take against the truth of the seven seals or the 
man that is trying to teach the seven seals, 
irrespective, God's kingdom, the stone, God himself is 
going to intervene and he's going to hit the image in 
the feet and it's all going to blow away, and God's 
going to take the jurisdiction and power from all the 
great men of the earth and all that the prophets have 
spoken is to be fulfilled. 

HENRY ; Um-hum . 

MR. KORESH: Now, the psalm continues to say 

I will declare the decree, the Lord has said unto tne, 
thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee. So we 
know the anointed one is Christ, don't we? Christ is 
the Son of God in Psalms 2, right? 



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HENRY ; Um - hutn . 

MR. KORESH: And it says the father says to 

the son ask of me and I will give thee the heathen for 
thine inheritance and the other most parts of the earth 
for thy possession, for thou shalt dash the heathen to 
pieces with a rod of iron and shall break them as a 
potter's vessel. Now, that's pretty bad, isn't it? 

HENRY: Um-hum. 

MR. KORESH; I mean, nobody wants to be hurt, 

do they? 

HENRY; No, really. 

MR. KORESH; So that's why in Psalms 2 the 
subject is clear, the mission of the lamb, the anointed 
one, is to teach the seals, okay? 

HENRY; Um-hum. 

MR. KORESH: Now, the reason why the prophecy 

is written is because it continues to say now, 
therefore, be wise, ye rulers of the world, be 
instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the Lord 
with fear and rejoice with trembling. Kies the sOn, 
least he be angry, and ye perish in the way when is 
wrath is kindled but a little. Now, I'm not mad at you 
guys , you know . 

HENRY: Well, and we're not mad at you, 

either. 

MR. KORESH: Well, but your show of arms is 



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definitely bigger than tny show of arms. So in Psalms 
18, the psalm has made very plain when it says I will 
love the Lord for he is my rock and my salvation, my 
buckler and the horn of my salvation. It says I will 
call upon him so shall 1 be delivered from my eniemies, 
for they were too strong for me. And the day of my 
calamity, and this is a calamity, really, they 
prevented me. And then it goes on to talk about a 
terrible event that takes place afterwards, because, 

I you know, you all guys are too big for me. 

You know, your laws are more numerous than 
the Ten Commandments, you know, your weapons are 
bigger, your forces are stronger. 

HENRY: Urn- hum. 

MR. KORESH: You know? But not really. You 
see, not really. You know, Elijah in his day, the king 
of Israel was having to face the Moabites and the 
Hittites and they were outnumbered. But what Elijah 
said was they that be with us are more than they that 
be with them because unbeknown to the forces of the 
heathen who were so boistering of their superior power 
they did not see the invisible forces of God, the 
angels of God, you know, just like in the days of 
ancient Hezekiah. 

HENRY : Um- hum . 

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wouldn't he? 

DAVID: Yeah. I can't get down there to it 

BO. Yeah, that's what we'll do. 

HENRY: Okay. And you know how everybody's 

concerned about money. And I mean everybody is, has a 
concern. Can you do me a favor, and can you make it, 
you know, like in such a fashion that, that in order to 
avoid their wanting to chop it up or to play part of it 
or whatever -- 

DAVID: How much, how much does it cost their 

air time? 

HENRY: Well, that's the whole thing. 

DAVID: Per minute? 

HENRY: That'S the whole thing. You know, so 

keep 

DAVID: How much does it cost? 

HENRY; I don't have any idea. But 

there's 

DAVID: Give me the price and I'll pay it. 
HENRY: Oh, I don't have any idea. I have no 
idea. But what I'd like to do is I would like for you 
to make it as concise and as brief as you can make it 
so that we can be in a situation where your word will, 
will get out. Nothing will be chopped off. Your 
message will go out as you want it, you know. 

DAVID: Well, like I say remember I'll even 


I 



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buy the time. You know? 

HENRY: Well, you know, we don't need -- 

DAVID: We will fund it. 

HENRY: --we don't need that. We -- what we 

want is we want you to -- you were given your 
cooperation, and that's what we promised what we would 
do. So I want to live up to my part of it. Yeah, I 
don't need your money. But I do need -- 

(Touch tone sounds . ) 

DAVID: Hello? Hello? 

HENRY: Jesus. 

DAVID: Hello? 

HENRY: Hello. 

DAVID: Hello. What's going on now? 

HENRY: Who was that? 

DAVID: Yeah. (Unidentified voice in 

background not discernible . ) 

HENRY: What — you know, what I, what I 

would like to see is I would like for you to, to 
prepare yourself in such a fashion that you get your 
message out and -- 

DAVID; Okay, wait a second. 

HENRY; Now, I'm a little bit confused about 
one thing. Okay? I, I know that you're, that you are 
a man of your word number one. And number two, I know 
that you know what you're talking about in terms of 



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I theology. I'm not as -- I'm not nearly versed as you 
are, okay? But one of the concerns that I have is I am 
taking you to your word and that is that you're going 
to come out and that everybody is going to come out and 
this thing is going to be resolved without anybody -- 

DAVID: Getting hurt. 

HENRY; Getting hurt. That includes you. 

DAVID: Except for what crimes we have to pay 

for what we've committed that is that. The world so 
speaks . 

HENRY: And that includes you. Am I ctorrect 

in assuming that -- 

DAVID: No, it's not an assumption. It's a 

fact. 


HENRY: Okay. Everybody's going to come out, 

and everybody's going to be fine, and there's going to 
be no shooting, and there's going to be nothing to, to 
cause anybody to do anything to hurt you. I don't want 
anybody to hurt you. Am I, am I correct in my 
assumption? 

DAVID: You're correct on that. 

HENRY: Okay. 

DAVID: So let's, let -- I got to start 

editing this and, and you got the van down there for 
the children, right? 

HENRY; Yes. 



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DAVID: Okay. Be sure and tell them we're 

coming then, all right? 

HENRY: Okay. Now, now listen, listen to 

what I'm going to tell you. I don't know if this van 
is going to stop in exactly the same place as the other 
van. It's going to be real close. The only reason 
that I'm telling you that is whoever' s going to take 
the kids there, you know, these are two new people, 
because we've had a changing of a shift, okay? So -- 

DAVID: Okay. But just at the water 

towers - - 

HENRY: Right. Right. 

DAVID: -- like it was before. 

HENRY: But, but I mean, you know, they may 

be 20 feet back or, or 5 feet forward from where they 
parked before. I don't want her to get a concern, 
whoever it is that's taking them there well, it's, they 
didn't park in exactly the same place. Nothing's -- 

DAVID: Okay. 

HENRY: -- going to happen other than what 

has happened before. 

DAVID: You got a radio communication, right? 

HENRY: Right. 

DAVID: Okay. Like I say, we'll get the kids 

ready and -- 

HENRY: Right. 



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I DAVID: Are they down there now? 

j HENRY; Yes. Now what, what we're going to 

need is I would like to try to start trying to find you 
medical help. 

DAVID: No, not yet. 

HENRY: Okay. 

DAVID: Let's get the other done. 

HENRY: Yes, we'll get -- no, I mean that's 

fine. And I understand that. And I'm not saying, you 
know, I'm going to send anybody in there. I want start 
preparing to have something ready for you after you do 


your tape 

and all 

of that . Okay? 



DAVID: 

Okie doke. 



HENRY: 

Okay. 



DAVID: 

Okay. Now I need 

to -- going to send 

the kids. 





HENRY: 

Okay. 



DAVID: 

He's going to get 

the equipment set 

up. 





HENRY: 

Okay. 



DAVID; 

I'm going to drink 

a little orange 


juice, get my breath up a bit. When I, when I cough, 
oh, man. I'll tell you. Anyway never mind. 


HENRY; How much time do you think you have? 
DAVID; Well, see it's, it's like I get, I 
get renewed. 



20 


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HENRY; Uh-huh. 

DAVID: You know, and then, you know, the 

pain and all of a sudden I get where it's like 
something's developing in my chest. It's like -- I 
don't know. It's, it's kind of like a -- it's hot a 
cold it's -- 

HENRY: Like an infection? 

DAVID: I don't know if it's an infection or 

not. It's just -- I don't know. It's just a -- it's 
kind of like you know how you feel when you feel like 
you're fixing to get the flu? 

HENRY: Yes. 

DAVID: Something like that. 

HENRY: Well, are you sure you, are you 

sure -- 

DAVID: You know, you go up and down. 

HENRY: Are you sure you don't want us to 

send you some medical help? 

DAVID: No, not yet. Let's, let's -- 

HENRY: Okay. 

DAVID; -- we're on a good road right now. 
That's what I've been trying to -- 

HENRY; Okay. 

DAVID; -- that's what I was trying to work 
with Jim all along. 


HENRY; Okay. 



21 


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DAVID: You know, I was trying to get a trust 

in him to see if he would, you know, really let me get 
these kids out, you know, the way I wanted to get them 
out . 

- HENRY: Okay. 

DAVID: And he's been very good to me. 

HENRY: Okay. Well -- 

DAVID: And -- 

HENRY: --we want to, we want to continue in 

that same vein. We don't want to change anything or, 
or make anything in such a fashion, you know. And when 
you kept telling me that there was somebody in that 
tower or in the roof, I knew that there wasn't anybody, 
you know, because -- 

DAVID: We found out what it was. 

HENRY: Okay. Well, we appreciate, you know, 
we appreciate your trusting us. We continue to trust 
you. 

DAVID : ( Groaning . ) 

HENRY: We want to continue working in this 

fashion. I would like, I would for, you know, [gap] I 
would like for you to start working on that, that tape, 
and I will work with you, and I want you to work With 
me. 

DAVID; Okie doke. Okay. Let me get off the 
phone then. And the kids will be down there in just a 



22 


1 

second. 

all right 

7 


2 


HENRY: 

Okay. 


3 


DAVID: 

Okie doke? 


4 


HENRY: 

Okay. 


5 


- DAVID: 

Okay, thanks . 


6 


HENRY: 

Um-hum . 


7 


tgapl 



8 



* * * 


9 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: 

-- and I'm 

10 

getting 

ready for that. 


11 


[gap] 



12 



* * * 


13 


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: 

Hello? 

14 


HENRY: 

Hello? 


15 


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: 

Yeah. 

16 


HENRY: 

This is Henry? 


17 


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: 

This is Henry. 

18 

Okay. Wait one moment. I'll give you 

to Steve. 

19 


HENRY: 

Okay. 


20 


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: 

Steve . Steve . 

21 

Henry. 




22 


STEVE: 

Hello? 


23 


HENRY: 

Hi, Steve. Steve? 


24 


STEVE: 

Yes. 


25 


HENRY: 

This is Henry. 




STEVE: 

Oh, hi, Henry. 



C 



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HENRY: 

How are you doing? 


STEVE: 

I'm on the tired side. 

Little bit -- 

HENRY: 

Oh, I guess so. 


STEVE: 

— little bit slow tonight. 

HENRY; 

Okay. Couple of things 

I wanted to 


bring up. David mentioned that he was going to try to 
do that audiotape. Is he working on that? 

STEVE: You know what, I, I just about 2 

minutes ago I was going to go lay down for a few 
minutes, and I went past him and he was almost snoring. 
He, he fell asleep. 

HENRY: Oh, he did? 

STEVE: Yeah. 

HENRY : Okay . 

STEVE: So are you working on that? Or I 

mean I -- or I mean have you checked or found out 
anything about it or -- 

HENRY: Well, he said he was going to try to, 

to give us a, a tape. And he had asked somebody to try 
to go and get some equipment from -- 

STEVE; Okay. Yeah, I, I see -- 
HENRY; -- the recording studio. 

STEVE; I see something is here right now. 

So that's apparently what it's part of. 

HENRY: Okay. Is, is he -- I really have a 

concern because he was, you know, he was in, in great 



24 


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pain and agony, you know, when I was talking to him 
earlier. 

STEVE; Uh-huh. 

HENRY: And, but, you know, part of the 

problem is like he said every time that he coughs or 
laughs or something like that that he feels that he 
starts bleeding again. 

STEVE: He said that? 

HENRY: Yes, he, he did. And the problem is 

if he is feeling -- if there is internal bleeding, see, 
when, when that coagulates, that's going to cause him 
some serious problems. It's been a long time since, 
since he suffered that wound, and we need to try to get 
him some medical help. 

STEVE: Well [gap] for, for what they're 

telling me I guess -- hello? 

HENRY: Yes [gap] . 

STEVE: [gap] Oh, something -- I don't know 

what's -- what's happening I wonder? 

HENRY: Yeah. 

STEVE: Is that at your end or -- 

HENRY; No, it's probably at your end. 

STEVE; Well, there's nobody around the, the 
phone here. I don't get it. 

HENRY: Uh-huh. 

STEVE: I'm looking around here right now. 



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Okay. It sounds actually better. I don't know what -- 
it kind of cleared up or something here. 

HENRY: Um-hum. 

STEVE: Okay. Okay, you were, you were 

saying, yeah. Oh, I tell you what. I'm just so worn 
out I'm having a hard time even talking here. 

HENRY: Okay. Well, let me, let me say this. 

The, the two --or the lady that brought the, the last 
two kids indicated that their car is almost out of 
gasoline. 

STEVE: Oh, it is. 

HENRY: So she said or she asked if we could 

bring some gasoline on the next, you know, when we do 
the next exchange. Can you get a couple of kids ready 
so we can pick them up and -- 

STEVE; Yeah, let, let me find out then. I 
guess I haven't been with it just too long here. I was 
starting to lay down there and I was -- let me find out 
what they're doing, and I'll try to do that, okay? 


HENRY; 

Okay. 


STEVE; 

Just a 

minute 

HENRY; 

Okay. 


[gap! 



STEVE: 

Just a 

minute , 

[gapl 



STEVE; 

Henry? 




26 


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HENRY; Yes. 

STEVE: So have you made progress with doing 

the tape thing or -- 

HENRY: Yes. As a matter of fact, I mean we, 

we encoi^jtered some difficulty but, but -- 
STEVE : Yeah . 

HENRY; What we're trying to do is because he 
is most serious ediout this -- 
STEVE: Uh-huh. 

HENRY: -- we're trying to react in exactly 

the same fashion. 

STEVE: Yeah. 

HENRY: And what we're trying to work out is 

j we're trying to get him some time on the National 
Christian Broadcasting Network. 

STEVE: The National Christian Broadcasting 

Network? 

HENRY: Yes, which has several thousand radio 

stations throughout the country. 

STEVE: Okay. 

HENRY: Now that is, is based in Phoenix, 

Arizona. 

STEVE: In Phoenix, Arizona. 

HENRY; But, you know, their headquarters. 

But when we called out there, there's nobody there, so 
we sent agents out to go to the people's house and get 



27 


1 them out of bed or wherever they're at -- 

2 STEVE: Dh-huh. 

3 HENRY: — SO that we can initiate this. 

4 STEVE; I see. So was he wanting to d!o that 

5 yet tonight or -- 


6 


HENRY; 

Well, he wanted to - 

- he was going to 

7 

record 

the , the 

cassette for us. 


8 


STEVE: 

Uh-huh. 


9 


HENRY; 

And then he assured 

me . 

10 


STEVE: 

Yeah. 


11 


HENRY: 

And I told him I was 

going to hold 

12 

him to 

his word. 

but he assured me not 

once but at 

13 

least four times 

- 


14 


STEVE: 

tJh-huh. 


15 


HENRY: 

that, that once we did that, 

16 

everybody was coming out. 


17 


STEVE: 

I see. Could you be 

careful of the 

18 

cord there? I think that's maybe what 

the problem is. 

19 

Someone 

was bumping into this -- the cord in the phone 

20 

is bad. 




21 


HENRY: 

Oh, okay. 


22 


STEVE; 

Okay. Yeah. Careful. Careful 

23 

there . 

Hello? 



24 


HENRY; 

Yes. 


25 


STEVE; 

Okay. Okay. Let me 

see . And then 


we're - 

- right now, he's fallen asleep. 

I see they 





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brought a couple of the things. Is there any way I 
could leave him maybe sleep for 1 hour? 

HENRY: Okay. But, but I have a concern, 

Steve. And the 

STEVE: Yeah. 

HENRY: -- concern that I have, you know, is 

that, you know, his health may be deteriorating. Okay, 
so -- 

STEVE: There's, there's -- right now there's 

a nurse over here. And she says leave him sleep for 
the moment -- 

HENRY: Okay. 

STEVE: -- just to regain, regain at least a 

little strength here. 

HENRY: Okay. That's -- 

STEVE; And then she said she wants there 
herself asking if, if they can't do something in that 
area. She was just whispering over here to me. So I, 

I think between her and I we're going to ask them about 
that, you know, getting that kind of attention or 
something, or see if there's more that could be done to 
help out there. 

HENRY : Okay . Okay . And we are ready to 

provide that, but — 

STEVE; Okay. 

HENRY: -- we're going to have to take him 



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out of there. 

STEVE: Uh-huh. 

HENRY: Okay? And I want you to be thinking 

in terms because at some point the responsibility, you 
know, for the entire group is probably going to shift 
to your shoulders, Steve. 

STEVE: I see. 

HENRY: And, and, you )cnow, I know there's an 

awful lot of people there. A lot of children. 

STEVE : Right . 

HENRY : We want to between you and us , 

between you and me, we need to try to coordinate this 
so that we can effect what -- 

STEVE: Right. 

HENRY: -- David and I initiated and that is 

everybody's coming out. 

STEVE: Okay. Is there any way then -- can, 

can you call me back in an hour? 

HENRY ; Sure . 

STEVE: Oh, that would be great. Because I 

think what I'm going to do is even lay down here, and 
I'm going to have somebody here wake me up then. Or 
if» if the phone rings, I'm just going to make sure 
that I hear it just so I don't fall off too deeply in 
sleep or something. 


HENRY: Okay. 



30 


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3 

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STEVE: Okay. 

HENRY: Now let me just ask you this. Can we 

get a couple of kids so that we can go ahead and, and 
give you the gasoline for that car that, that that lady 
was asking about? 

STEVE: Well, she said he never -- he passed 

out before he gave the next couple that were to be 
going. So I don't know what to really do right now. 

Can, can we just wait for 1 hour? 

HENRY: Okay. Does -- 

STEVE: And then, and call me and I'm going 
to have them at least have, you know, a number of them 
ready so that he can just say well, you know, these two 
are going next then. 


15 


HENRY: 

Okay. 


16 


STEVE: 

Yeah. 

I'm -- oh, I tell you what. I 

17 

mean I'm, 

I'm so 

tired. 

Last night I went through the 

18 

whole night. And I, I 

never got to sleep at all. I 

19 

laid down 

- 



20 


HENRY: 

You must be exhausted. 

21 


STEVE: 

Oh, I 

am. 

22 


HENRY: 

Okay. 


23 


STEVE: 

Henry 

, thanks much. 

24 


HENRY: 

Okay. 


25 


STEVE: 

I, I mean I know you're really trying 


there . I , 

I can 

tell. 

And I really do appreciate it. 



31 


1 


HENRY: 

Um-hum. 


2 


STEVE: 

So I'm going to conk out here for 

3 

about an hour. And please call me back. 


4 


HENRY: 

Okay. One other thing. 


5 


_ STEVE: 

Okay. 


6 


HENRY: 

Did you need a phone cord? 


7 


STEVE: 

I -- yeah. When you call me 

back, 

8 

then 

I'll mention 

that again. I guess we -- I 

think 

9 

said 

that, didn't 

he? 


10 


HENRY: 

Yeah, but I'm not sure what kind of 

11 

cord 

it is that he wants. 


12 


STEVE : 

I'm not certain either to be 

honest 

13 

with 

you. 



14 


HENRY: 

Okay. Okay. Well, check on 

those 

15 

things . 



16 


STEVE: 

Okay. 


17 


HENRY: 

You know, in odjout an hour I 

11 be 

18 

back 

to you. 



19 


STEVE: 

Thank you much. 


20 


HENRY: 

Thank you, Steve. 


21 


STEVE: 

Okay. Yeah. Bye. 


22 


HENRY: 

Bye-bye . 


23 



* * * 


24 


RACHEL: 

Hello? 


25 


HENRY: 

Hello? 



RACHEL: Hello? 



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HENRY: This is Henry. Who's this? 

RACHEL: Just a minute. Steve. Steve. Who 

am I talking to? 

HENRY: This is Henry. Who's this. 

RACHEL: I'm sorry. I couldn't understand 

you. 

HENRY: Henry. 

RACHEL : Henry . 

HENRY: Who's this? 

RACHEL: Oh, it's Rachel. 

HENRY: Hi, Rachel. How you doing? 

RACHEL: Okay. 

HENRY: How's everybody doing in there? 

RACHEL: I guess okay. 

HENRY: How's David? 

RACHEL: Well, he looks okay. Looks like 

he's - - 

HENRY: He looks okay? 

RACHEL: Looks like he's sleeping. 

HENRY: Okay. Who is the nurse in there 

that's, that's taking care of him? 

RACHEL: Which nurse is it? 

HENRY: Yeah. 

RACHEL: I don't know. 

HENRY: Are you a nurse? 


RACHEL: No. 



33 



HENRY; Okay. Is there more than one nurse 

in there? 

RACHEL: I think there's a few, but I don't 

know who, which one is which. 

_ HENRY: Uh-huh. Well, you know, we have a 
concern. And we wanted to see if we could talk to her 
so that -- 

RACHEL: Looks like she's waking up. 

HENRY: Oh, okay. 

RACHEL: Here. 

[gap] 

DAVID: This Harry? 

HENRY: David? 

DAVID: Yeah. Is this Harry? 

HENRY: This is Henry. 

DAVID: Henry. Oh -- sorry. 

HENRY; How are you doing? 

DAVID: Okay. 

HENRY: Are you in pain? 

DAVID: (Gasping.) Oh, it's almost a funny 

question. But, oh, wait a second. Let me look -- 
okay. All right. Are the children there yet? 

HENRY; Yes, they are. You want to talk to 

them? 


DAVID; Yeah. See. Rachel? Could you, 
could you get Larry? Is Larry asleep or -- could you 



34 


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get Rachel, Larry and -- 

RACHEL: -- asleep. 

DAVID: Course, little Jamie can't talk so. 

HENRY: Um-hum. We want to confirm that 

you're going to be making that tape, okay? 

DAVID: Yeah. I was just trying to get some 

rest 

HENRY: Yeah. 

DAVID: --to get my strength up. 

HENRY: Okay. Okay. I can understand that. 

Do you -- I don't know if Steve had a chance to, to 
talk to you. But, you know, we're working something 
out. And because, because you are serious, very 
serious about this, we want to approach it from the 
same, you know, with that same seriousness. Okay? 

DAVID: Oh, yeah. 

HENRY: And what we'd like to do is we are 

trying to not present this to somebody that's, that's 
going to take it lightly but rather whom we are trying 
to contact as a matter of fact as we speak is the 
National Christian Broadcasting Network. Okay? 

DAVID: All right. 

HENRY: Okay. 

DAVID; All right. Okay. Where's, 
where's -- which -- where is that located at? 

HENRY; They're based out of Arizona. I 



35 


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think it's in, I think it's in Phoenix. And they 
have -- 

DAVID: What's the subsidiary station here 

locally? 

HENRY: That I don't know. I know that they 

have several thousand radio stations throughout the 
country. But, you know -- 

DAVID: The Station everybody's listening to 

right now is KRLD, right? 

HENRY: Yeah. But that's, that's local. 

DAVID; I know -- 

HENRY; We're trying to get you something 
number one that's religious. 

DAVID: Exactly. 

HENRY: That's, that's serious. 

DAVID: Exactly. 

HENRY: Number two that has national 

exposure . 

DAVID: Okay. 

HENRY: Now the -- you know, as you know, 

that one of, one of the concerns that I have is here 
you are very serious, okay. And some of these people 
are calling you -- I don't even want to tell you what 
they're calling you. Okay? I mean it's something that 
you don't like. Okay? So I thought it would be -- 

DAVID: No, okay. I just -- I got what 



36 


1 you're saying just -- 

2 HENRY: Okay. So we want to have something 

3 that, you know, that you're going to be pleased with. 

4 Because it's considered a serious religious network. 

5 Okay? So we -- I mean, we called this national network 

6 in Arizona, and we couldn't get a hold of anybody. So 

7 what we did is we called our FBI office in Phoenix, and 

8 as we speak they're waking up the people that are in 

9 charge of this. 


10 


DAVID: 

It's not e 

i 24 -hour radio station? 

11 


HENRY: 

Well, I'm 

not sure about that. I'm 

12 

sure that it is. 



13 


DAVID: 

What, what -- 

14 


HENRY; 

I shouldn' 

t say I'm sure that it is. 

15 

But , but 

the people that we 

were trying to contact, the 

16 

head people, weren't aroiind. 

So -- 

17 


DAVID: 

Oh, I see. 

Yeah. 

18 


HENRY: 

--so they, they sent people out to 

19 

the home. 

Okay? 



20 


DAVID; 

Right . 


21 


HENRY: 

And when ] 

: was talking to Steve, he 

22 

was a little bit 

confused about what you wanted. So -- 

23 


DAVID; 

Okay. We' 

re going to make this tape. 

24 

It's not 

going to 

be a long 

one. 

25 


HENRY: 

Okay. 




DAVID: 

And we're 

going to put something 



37 


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together very tangible, very simple, very even and 
begin to show the difference between the way I perceive 
the seals and what, in, in difference to what we've 
heard the seals being presented thus far by all so- 
called teachers and religious leaders that have been 
calling the radio stations. 

HENRY: Uh-huh. 

DAVID: So that way people will be able to 

honestly listen and read their Bibles as they're 
listening and see that I know what I'm talking about. 

HENRY: Exactly. 

DAVID: And then they'll make a decision from 

what they themselves have seen and heard from their own 
Bible. And then like I say, then I'm in your hands. 

HENRY: Okay. One of the concerns that I 

have, okay, is I'm talking to some people, some medical 
people. And what -- I don't like what I'm hearing. 

And what I'm hearing is that, you know, remember when 
we were talking earlier and you coughed, okay. You 
told me that you thought that you might be bleeding. 

If you 

DAVID : Yeah, when I cough I bleed. 

HENRY: Okay. Now do you, do you think that 

you're bleeding internally? Probably, right? 

DAVID: Well, the hole is right here next to 

the belly. And it, it hit me in the, the pelvic, and 



then it somehow traced around and went out kind of 


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towards my back. 

HENRY: 

DAVID: 

the front. 


There was a hole in the back -- 
(Whispering.) My God, 

-- that was bigger than the hole in 


HENRY: Yeah. Well, see -- 

DAVID: And then the -- 

HENRY: What, what I'm, what I'm being told; 

is that when you're hemorrhaging and then you're blood 
clots, okay, it creates a problem, because internally 
somebody's going to have to deal with it. You've 
been -- this is a long time ago that this occurred. We 
need to try to move things along so that you can get 
some medical assistance before you start having a lot 
<51fficulty, you know, and, and you start going into 
shock or something like that. 

DAVID: Well, I was in shock when I first got 

hit I thought. 

HENRY: Okay. 

DAVID: But like I say when -- I'm going to 

make this tape and, and I'm going to -- when we send 
the kids out to you I'm going to send that tape with 
them. And you'll just have to -- this will play, this 
will play tomorrow sometimes, right? 

HENRY: Well, we can play it whenever you 

want. If you want we can play it now. Or we can, we 





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can go -- 

DAVID: Well -- 

HENRY: -- you know, we can play it tomorrow. 

Tomorrow will be fine. Now, you know, if you have e 
problem, -.if you have -- or if you're not happy with the 
National Christian Broadcasting Network, we can go to 
KRLD. I mean I don't have any problems going with 
whomever you want. 

DAVID: Well, that's like I say if it's a 

national coverage then other stations will pick it up, 

HENRY : Sure . 

DAVID: And KRLD will probably more than 

happy want to play it. Because they've, they've been 
wondering what's happened to me anyway. 

HENRY: Okay. Well, I don't have any 

problems making them a copy and giving them a copy or 
whatever you'd like. 

DAVID: Would you, would you make a 

correction for KRLD and then those things for me? 

HENRY; Okay. 

DAVID: Let's see. They keep saying we have 

eight kids out. Let's see, we got l, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 

12, 14, 16 children. And they need to, they need to 
understand we got 16 children out. 

HENRY: Okay. 

DAVID; And there's a whole lot more as 



40 


1 you'll find out. And your all's records were really 

2 wrong when you numbered the amount of people here and 

3 stuff. And, and, you know, I'd like to hear that on 

4 the radio that there was 18 of them gotten out so far. 

5 That's Lahara, Renee, Angelica, Crystal, Camaray 

6 (phonetic sp.). Landon, Jake, let's see, my eyes are 

7 kind of blurry. 


8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 
21 
22 

23 

24 

25 


SHERRY: 

Ryan. 

DAVID: 

Ryan, yeah. 

HENRY: 

Okay. Give me the names again. 

DAVID: 

Let me, let me get this -- 

HENRY: 

Lahara . 

DAVID: 

closer to, to me. Just read 


Off to me there. Sherry, would you? The, the ones that 
•we've sent out so far. Okay. (Unidentified voices in 
background not discernible.) Okay, wait a second. 

Slow down, all right? Okay. Lahara. 

HENRY: Lahara. 

DAVID: Okay. You already got that down? 

HENRY: Um-hum. 

DAVID: Renee. 

HENRY : Renee . 

DAVID: Okay. Angelica. 

HENRY: Angelica. 

DAVID : Go ahead . 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Crystal. 



41 


1 


DAVID 

Crystal . 


2 


HENRY 

Crystal . 


3 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER; 

Camaray . 

4 


DAVID 

Camaray . 


5 


_ HENRY 

Camaray. 


6 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER; 

Landon . 

7 


DAVID 

Landon . 


8 


HENRY 

Landon . 


9 


DAVID 

Yeah. The next one 

's Jake. 

10 


HENRY 

Jake . 


11 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER; 

Ryan. 

12 


DAVID; 

Ryan. 


13 


HENRY: 

Brian . 


14 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: 

Joshua . 

15 


DAVID: 

Joshua . 


16 


HENRY; 

Joshua . 


17 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER; 

Jamie . 

18 


DAVID: 

Jamie . 


19 


HENRY: 

Jamie . 


20 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER; 

And -- 

21 


DAVID: 

No. The other ones 

-- all the ( 

22 

that 

are marked off. (Unidentified female voice ; 

23 

background not discernible.) Those others on the 

24 

side 





25 


unidentified male SPEIAKER; Oh, Janessa. 
DAVID; Okay. Janeesa. 



42 


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24 

25 


HENRY : Janessa . 

DAVID: Patron. 

HENRY: Patron. 

DAVID: Yeah. Keep going. (Unidentified 

voices in background not discernible.) Let me see. 

Let me see that list. (Groaning.) Okay. Oh, are you 
saying these here are listed twice? 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah. 

DAVID: No, they're not. No, these are the 

first ones we sent out. That's why they wrote the 
names over there. 


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: -- we listed 

them (indiscernible) . 



DAVID: 

No, you didn't. There's Chrissy. 


HENRY: 

Chrissy. 


DAVID: 

Brian . 


HENRY; 

Brian . 


DAVID: 

Scott . 


HENRY: 

Scott . 


DAVID; 

Jake. 


HENRY: 

Jake. 


DAVID: 

And you already got Joshua and Jamie 

So 

that's -- (unidentified female voice in background 

not 

; discernible) 

-- 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, -- okay, 6, 7, 

B, 

9 -- all we've 

been saying anyway how many -- 


HENRY; I, I think we only have 14. I think 



43 


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4 

5 

6 
7 

e 

9 

10 

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12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

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21 
22 

23 

24 

25 


you said 16, but I think we have 14. 

DAVID: Oh, boy. I tell you. I mean, I may 
be corrected on them. But like I say, I got a big long 
list here and -- 

- HENRY: Okay. 

DAVID: — we're marking them off little by 

little and -- okay. All right. So -- (groaning) -- 
all right, then so I'm going to start -- where's, 
where's Greg and them? They still -- where's Steve? 
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Sleeping. 

DAVID: Is he sleeping around the corner? 

Oh, anyway. Here, here Larry. Here's -- this guy will 
let you talk to Josh. 

LORRAINE: Hello?. 

HENRY: Hello? 

LORRAINE: Hello? This is Joshua's mother. 
HENRY: Oh, okay. Hold on a second. Let me 

get -- 

LORRAINE: Okay. Thauik you. 

HENRY; What's your name? 

LORRAINE ; Lorraine . 

HENRY: Lorraine? Okay. Hold on, Lorraine. 

Let me get the -- Joshua. How are you doing? 

LORRAINE: I'm doing fine. Thank you. 

HENRY; Good. 


fgap] 



44 


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HENRY: He's coming right up, Lorraine. Hold 

on just a second. 

LORRAINE: Okay. 

HENRY : {Whispering . ) Say hi . 

- JOSHUA: Hi. 

LORRAINE; Hi, honey. You doing okay? 

JOSHUA: Yeah. 

LORRAINE: Okay. You be a good soldier, all 

right? 

JOSHUA: Okay. 

LORRAINE: Okay. I love you, honey. 

JOSHUA: Okay. 

LORRAINE: Okay, sweetheart. 

JOSHUA: Bye. 

LORRAINE: Bye. Yeah, they'll feed you. 

(Unidentified male voice in background not 
discernible. ) 

JOSHUA: What? 

LORRAINE; Yeah, he knows that. He already 
said they won't feed me no -- yeah, you tell them no 
pork, honey, right? Do you hear Mommy? 

JOSHUA; Uh-huh. 

LORRAINE: Okay, sweetheart. Be a good boy, 

okay? 

JOSHUA: Okay. 

LORRAINE; Okay. I love you. Wait, hang on 



45 


a sec. Huh? Hey, are you seeing the rest of the kids? 
Did you get to play with them? 

JOSHUA: No. 

LORRAINE: No? Oh, maybe you will. What, 

what about the other kids that left? You didn't see 
them? 

JOSHUA: Dh-uh. 

LORRAINE: The ones that just left, no? 


9 

Okay. 

Well, maybe 

you'll see them. Okay, you 

10 

take 

the 

phone back, David? 

Okay, sweetheart. 

11 

man back 

on, okay? 



12 



JOSHUA: 

Okay. 


13 



LORRAINE; 

I love 

you very much. 

14 



JOSHUA: 

Bye. 


15 



LORRAINE: 

Bye-bye 

, darling. 

16 



HENRY: Lorraine? 


17 



LORRAINE: 

Yes? 


18 



HENRY: Oh, okay. 



19 

20 
21 
22 

23 

24 

25 


LORRAINE: Okay, I'm going to put David back 

on, okay? 

HENRY: That's fine. 

LORRAINE; Okay. Thank you. 

HENRY: Thank you. (Unidentified female 

voice in background not discernible.) 

DAVID: Okay. All right, thanks. Okay. 
HENRY: David, one of the things that we need 



r"> 


1 


46 


10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 
21 
22 

23 

24 


to work out if, if we can is we have -- when we made 
that last exchange the ladies that brought the, the 
kids over said that their car was running out of 


gasoline, and they wondered if we could get them some 
gasoline.^ 


DAVID: Wait a second. 

HENRY: Okay. 

DAVID: Said something about their car being 

out of gasoline? Oh, it is? (Unidentified voices in 
background not discernible . ) Oh that, that little car, 
you know, it goes a long ways just on a -- well, we -- 
she said 


HENRY: So what -- 

DAVID: -- that she talked to the girl, Mary. 

But the thing of it is, is that -- how low is, how 
close to empty is it? (Unidentified female voice in 
background not discernible.) 

HENRY: David? 

DAVID: Yes. 

HENRY: What, what we've done is we've gotten 

a, you know, 5, 5 gallons worth of gasoline. We got a 
gas tank full of — 

DAVID: Oh. 

HENRY: And when they, we make the next 

exchange we'll just fill it up. We'll, we'll pour the 
5 gallons of gasoline in the car. Okay? 


25 



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• • 

47 

DAVID: Okay. All right. Thanks. I 

appreciate that. 

HENRY: Okay. 

DAVID: I don't -- well, it's too late to get 

a phone mow so. 

HENRY: What? 

DAVID: Oh, we -- see we have a lot of -- 

what we had to do is because I couldn't move and our 
phone was, was way down in a different part of the 
building, we had to scrounge up all kinds of phone 
cords and piece them together to stretch them across 
the building to, to get to where I am. 

HENRY: Uh-huh. 

DAVID: So we could have a phone here. 

HENRY: Oh, okay, so you need a 

DAVID ; So I had asked, I had, you know, I 
had sent some money to Jim, and I'd asked him, you 
know, to, you know, take care of the kids with that. 

But -- 

HENRY: Um-hum. 

DAVID: -- I'd also asked him to if he could 

If he could just like have someone pick up, you know, 
half, you know, nothing real fancy, just a straight 
phone from Radio Shack or something with approximately 
150 feet or so of, of telephone cable. 

HENRY: Okay. Well, that's - you know, I, i 



48 




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25 


have a note here to get, to get a telephone cord, I 
didn't know what exactly that was. 

DAVID: Yeah. 

HENRY: Okay. That'S what you need. You, 

you need- - - 

DAVID: Yeah. Not the, the kind that twist 

around and around, you know, the, the straight stuff, 
you know. I need a lot of it. And the longer pieces 
we can get the better , because then we don ' t have so 
many connections we have to make. 

HENRY; Okay. Now you want that -- that's 
like, like an inside cord, right? 

DAVID; Yes, sir. 

HENRY: Okay. Let me work on that. I'll 

probably get that as soon as, as -- 

DAVID: They've got it at Radio Shack. 

They've got like, you know, they even got like 50 feet 
sections, you know. So -- 

HENRY: Okay. Let me ask you this. When I 

spoke to Steve he was, he was concerned, you know, 
about your health as we all are, okay? But he's -- he 
has a concern about making any decisions. Are you 
trying to prepare him --do you think it might be wise 
to, to -- is somebody calling? Hello? 

DAVID; Hello? 

HENRY; Yeah. That is Steve -- are you 



49 




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working towards preparing Steve to take over some of 
the responsibility? Because I feel that you're getting 
weaker, okay? And, and you have a lot of 
responsibility on your shoulders, okay? 

_ DAVID: Well, that's what I was telling Jitn. 

I was telling Jim, I said look, Jim, I teach my 
students from the very first day that they meet me I 
tell them, I say hey, look, do you want to learn the 
seals? And they don't even know what that is at first, 
most of them. So I tell them look, would you like to 
learn something about Jesus Christ -- 
(End of tape.)